Theravada against mathematics

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:00 pm
Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote: Nirvana will not just happen

not by accident, only by effort
Deterministic processes, just like random events, have probability. Deterministic processes are a special case for probability theory.
…… only by effort
Hinting at some act of free will, you deny thereby the Pali Abhidhamma. Any act of volition is just an event (similar to a physical event in the modern sense). There is no subject of free choice, no personality - there are only elements.
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Germann
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Re: The number of all possible consecutive combinations

Post by Germann »

Dan74-MkII wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:31 pm
Germann wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:47 pm
Dan74-MkII wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 am

As stated, it is of course infinite.
http://mymathforum.com/advanced-statist ... inite.html
- The number of all possible consecutive combinations (sequences with beginning and end, finite sequences) of a limited number of elements with a limited number of changes from one combination to another (in one sequence) is infinite?
- No. Why would it be?
Just think of natural numbers. Each one is finite, made up of at most 10 different digits. Yet there are infinitely many of them.
The infinity of the set of natural numbers does not mean that one of the natural numbers does not yet belong to this set. They are all included in this infinite set.

We have a natural number (the finite sequence of combinations of a finite number of elements, 10 digits) is an analogue of the past life (the finite sequence of combinations of a finite number of dhammas).

All life options are included in an infinite number of past lives - including life with the realization of Nibbana. All natural numbers are included in the infinite set of natural numbers.
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Circle5 wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:03 pm I have not yet read all the 20 pages of this topic, but has anyone explained this correctly already? Buddha answered like that because of the "almost surely paradox": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely

Buddha was once asked: Since beings will get reborn here to infinity and all sorts of conditions will arise, surely at one point there will arise the proper conditions for a being to get enlightened. Therefore, all beings will get enlightened.

Buddha answered that nope, a being can get reborn to infinity and never get enlightened. This confused even Bhikkhu Bodhi in an interview with B. Sujato. B.Bodhi did not know how to answer and why Buddha said that.

In order to understand the almost surely paradox, imagine you are throwing a dart at a flat TV screen. Let's say you split the TV screen in half by drawing a line straight in the middle. Wherever the dart will land, it can only be in either one of these 2 parts. But the dart can also land straight in the middle, on that line. Now let's say you make that line smaller. Well, it still can land right on it. No matter how much you try, there will always be that small possibility of the dart not landing in any of the 2 squares. Therefore, all that can be said is that "almost surely that the dar will land in either of those squares".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely

If the Buddha said anything other than almost surely, then you would have a huge problem for buddhism, not the other way around.
Buddha did not recognize mechanism (determinism), did not recognize the true total denial of the existence of satta (the subject of free will). Сan be understood as follows. But the Suttas were treated differently - traditionally, through the school Abhidhamma. That which is said in the Abhidhamma is the Theravada school.

If we interpret the Suttas in the spirit of the Mahayana philosophy, this is a secondary, derivative school in relation to Mahayana, a school of the 20-21 centuries.
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Germann
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Re: The number of all possible consecutive combinations

Post by Germann »

Dan74-MkII wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:31 pm
Germann wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:47 pm
Dan74-MkII wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 am

As stated, it is of course infinite.
http://mymathforum.com/advanced-statist ... inite.html
- The number of all possible consecutive combinations (sequences with beginning and end, finite sequences) of a limited number of elements with a limited number of changes from one combination to another (in one sequence) is infinite?
- No. Why would it be?
Just think of natural numbers. Each one is finite, made up of at most 10 different digits. Yet there are infinitely many of them.
Are you ready to prove that at least one of the natural numbers is not included in the infinite set of all natural numbers? Then it will be evidence that in the infinite multitude of past lives there is not necessarily a life that ends with the realization of Nibbana.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Germann wrote:
Deterministic processes, just like random events, have probability. Deterministic processes are a special case for probability theory.
…… only by effort
Hinting at some act of free will, you deny thereby the Pali Abhidhamma
karma is based on free will
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cappuccino
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Re: The number of all possible consecutive combinations

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Germann wrote: Then it will be evidence that in the infinite multitude of past lives there is not necessarily a life that ends with the realization of Nibbana.
your current life is evidence you wasted time…

how likely is that to change?

no particular math will determine the answer
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Carpe diem
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:06 pm
Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

…… only by effort
Hinting at some act of free will, you deny thereby the Pali Abhidhamma
karma is based on free will
Whose freedom is it, if satta does not totally exist in reality?
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Germann wrote:
Hinting at some act of free will, you deny thereby the Pali Abhidhamma
karma is based on free will
Whose freedom is it, if satta does not totally exist in reality?
your freedom
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm
Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

karma is based on free will
Whose freedom is it, if satta does not totally exist in reality?
your freedom
I do not exist in reality, in reality there are elements (dhammas). This is what Pali Abhidhamma teaches.
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by cappuccino »

Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Germann wrote:
Whose freedom is it, if satta does not totally exist in reality?
your freedom
I do not exist in reality, in reality there are elements (dhammas). This is what Pali Abhidhamma teaches.
then I will not converse with you

you're wasting my time, as well as yours
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:22 pm
Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:

your freedom
I do not exist in reality, in reality there are elements (dhammas). This is what Pali Abhidhamma teaches.
then I will not converse with you

you're wasting my time, as well as yours
You disagree with the Pali Abhidhamma.

The Path of Purification p. 233-235

Bhikkhu Ñánamoli:

(1) Concept of the existent (vijjamána-paññatti), which is the conceptualizing of (making known) a dhamma that is existent, actual, become, in the true and ultimate sense (e.g. aggregates, etc.).

(2) Concept of the non-existent, which is, for example, the conceptualizing of “female,” “male,” “persons,” etc., which are non-existent by that standard and are only established by means of current speech in the world; similarly “such impossibilities as concepts of a fifth truth or the other sectarians’ Atom, Primordial Essence, World Soul, and the like.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Germann wrote:
cappuccino wrote:
Germann wrote:
I do not exist in reality, in reality there are elements (dhammas). This is what Pali Abhidhamma teaches.
then I will not converse with you

you're wasting my time, as well as yours
You disagree with the Pali Abhidhamma.
yes
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Sherab
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

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Germann wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:46 pm
Sherab wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:30 pm
Germann wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:36 am
Nibbana can be anything (complete non-existence, for example). It does not matter. The only important thing is that Nibbana manifests after a certain sequence of combinations of dhammas, which has a beginning and an end (after passing the entire Path).
Nibbana cannot be anything. It is 'something' very specific - a state of enlightenment. Sorry, I cannot agree with your argument even more. We are talking entirely about different things, first what dhammas really refer to in your argument and now Nibbana itself.
Nibbana manifests after a series of pre-known combinations of dhammas. Nothing else matters.
Based on your argument, Nibbana is something conditioned. But Nibbana is something unconditioned. If you accept that, then how can you argue that Nibbana manifests after a series of pre-known combinations of (conditioned) dhammas?

You keep returning to the assumption that Nibbana is something conditioned to respond to my argument. Could you state categorically whether you view Nibbana as conditioned or unconditioned. If it is the former, then we are talking about different things. If it is the latter, then your arguments failed.
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Germann
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Re: Theravada against mathematics

Post by Germann »

Sherab wrote: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:08 pm
Germann wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:46 pm
Sherab wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:30 pm
Nibbana cannot be anything. It is 'something' very specific - a state of enlightenment. Sorry, I cannot agree with your argument even more. We are talking entirely about different things, first what dhammas really refer to in your argument and now Nibbana itself.
Nibbana manifests after a series of pre-known combinations of dhammas. Nothing else matters.
Based on your argument, Nibbana is something conditioned. But Nibbana is something unconditioned. If you accept that, then how can you argue that Nibbana manifests after a series of pre-known combinations of (conditioned) dhammas?

You keep returning to the assumption that Nibbana is something conditioned to respond to my argument. Could you state categorically whether you view Nibbana as conditioned or unconditioned. If it is the former, then we are talking about different things. If it is the latter, then your arguments failed.
You will argue that Nibbana can not manifest after the complete passage of the Path?
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