Wrong concentration.

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SarathW
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Wrong concentration.

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:48 am

Some interesting point to discuss I suppose.
You don't find many Sutta which describe the wrong Jhana.

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What kind of meditation did the Blessed One not praise? Here, brahmin, someone abides with his mind obsessed by sensual lust, a prey to sensual lust, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen sensual lust. While he harbours sensual lust within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. He abides with his mind obsessed by ill will, a prey to ill will…with his mind obsessed by sloth and torpor, a prey to sloth and torpor…with his mind obsessed by restlessness and remorse, a prey to restlessness and remorse…with his mind obsessed by doubt, a prey to doubt, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen doubt. While he harbours doubt within, he meditates, premeditates, out-meditates, and mismeditates. The Blessed One did not praise that kind of meditation.

https://suttacentral.net/mn108/en/bodhi
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:50 am

And what kind of meditation did he not praise?
Kathaṃ rūpañca, brāhmaṇa, so bhagavā jhānaṃ na vaṇṇesi?
It’s when someone’s heart is overcome and mired in sensual desire, and they don’t truly understand the escape from sensual desire that has arisen.
Idha, brāhmaṇa, ekacco kāmarāgapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati kāmarāgaparetena, uppannassa ca kāmarāgassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti;
Harboring sensual desire within they meditate and concentrate and contemplate and ruminate.
so kāmarāgaṃyeva antaraṃ karitvā jhāyati pajjhāyati nijjhāyati apajjhāyati.
Their heart is overcome and mired in ill will …
Byāpādapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati byāpādaparetena, uppannassa ca byāpādassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti;
so byāpādaṃyeva antaraṃ karitvā jhāyati pajjhāyati nijjhāyati apajjhāyati.
dullness and drowsiness …
Thinamiddhapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati thinamiddhaparetena, uppannassa ca thinamiddhassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti;
so thinamiddhaṃyeva antaraṃ karitvā jhāyati pajjhāyati nijjhāyati apajjhāyati.
restlessness and remorse …
Uddhaccakukkuccapariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati uddhaccakukkuccaparetena, uppannassa ca uddhaccakukkuccassa nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti;
so uddhaccakukkuccaṃyeva antaraṃ karitvā jhāyati pajjhāyati nijjhāyati apajjhāyati.
doubt, and they don’t truly know and see the escape from doubt that has arisen.
Vicikicchāpariyuṭṭhitena cetasā viharati vicikicchāparetena, uppannāya ca vicikicchāya nissaraṇaṃ yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti;
Harboring doubt within they meditate and concentrate and contemplate and ruminate.
so vicikicchaṃyeva antaraṃ karitvā jhāyati pajjhāyati nijjhāyati apajjhāyati.
The Buddha didn’t praise this kind of meditation.
Evarūpaṃ kho, brāhmaṇa, so bhagavā jhānaṃ na vaṇṇesi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn108/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

budo
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by budo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 am

You can't get Jhana if you have the 5 hindrances, so "Wrong Jhana" doesn't exist.

The only "Wrong Jhana" that I know of is seeing Jhanas as an end in themselves, and not as impermanent states (and by extension a thorn, suffering, etc..)

You have to remember that the Buddha wanted to teach his teachers Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama first and foremost after his awakening, but then found out they had died. The Buddha surveyed the landscape after Brahma begged him to teach the dhamma, so the Buddha started with the people who would easily understand the quickest, which would have been his teachers had they not died. That means his teachers were VERY close to enlightenment, all it would have taken was a few words and they would have become Arahants, they basically completed 99% of the path already.

This is why the Buddha said it was a great misfortune and loss that they had died without hearing the dhamma. A stream entrant may barely have any concentration practice, but he is forever safe, therefore the dhamma is like saving your life / lives.

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DooDoot
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:18 am

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 am
You can't get Jhana if you have the 5 hindrances, so "Wrong Jhana" doesn't exist.
The suttas appear to refer literally to wrong jhana.
In one of right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It seems wrong jhana is jhana without right view, that is, jhana with clinging to jhana as 'self' or 'mine'.
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by budo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:21 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:18 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 am
You can't get Jhana if you have the 5 hindrances, so "Wrong Jhana" doesn't exist.
The suttas appear to refer literally to wrong jhana.
In one of right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Where does it say "Wrong Jhana" in that sutta?

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DooDoot
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:22 am

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:21 am
Where does it say "Wrong Jhana" in that sutta?
The sutta (MN 117) is about the Noble Eightfold Path. Right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path is defined (in SN 45.8) as the four jhanas. Therefore, it seems wrong concentration in MN 117 is the same as wrong jhana. For example:
There is the case where an individual, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that. Staying there — fixed on that, dwelling there often, not falling away from that — then when he dies he reappears in conjunction with the devas of Brahma's retinue. The devas of Brahma's retinue, monks, have a life-span of an eon. A run-of-the-mill person having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, goes to hell, to the animal womb, to the state of the hungry shades. But a disciple of the Blessed One, having stayed there, having used up all the life-span of those devas, is unbound right in that state of being. This, monks, is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor, between an educated disciple of the noble ones and an uneducated run-of-the-mill person, when there is a destination, a reappearing.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by budo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:22 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:21 am
Where does it say "Wrong Jhana" in that sutta?
The sutta (MN 117) is about the Noble Eightfold Path. Right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path is defined (in SN 45.8) as the four jhanas. Therefore, it seems wrong concentration is the same as wrong jhana.
You said "Literally", and it "literally" doesn't say jhana in that sutta. It just says wrong concentration. There is no definition of wrong concentration in that sutta either, so it's all your imagination.

Now before you go on your tirades as usual, I'll just opt out here so someone else can deal with that mess that is your mind.

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DooDoot
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:30 am

budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:25 am
You said "Literally", and it "literally" doesn't say jhana in that sutta. It just says wrong concentration. There is no definition of wrong concentration in that sutta either, so it's all your imagination.
"Right concentration" in the sutta does not refer to "jhana" but it is obviously jhana. Therefore, given AN 4.123 says clinging to jhana as "my jhana" can lead to rebirth in hell, it seems logical MN 117 can also include "wrong jhana" as a type of "wrong concentration". MN 117 clearly says right concentration/jhana must be supported by right view. Thus, any regarding jhana as "my jhana" obviously cannot be right concentration. Keep in mind, clinging to jhana appears to be a type of becoming in dependent origination leading to suffering. For example, if our idea of jhana is challenged, we get angry. SN 48.10 is a good sutta. It clarifies the Noble Disciple attains jhana by making "letting go" the object. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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form
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by form » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:53 pm

Both of you have good point to support your argument. None of you can win the other. :twothumbsup:

This is also a difference between vishuddamagga versus vimuttimagga.

budo
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by budo » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:38 pm

form wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:53 pm
Both of you have good point to support your argument. None of you can win the other. :twothumbsup:

This is also a difference between vishuddamagga versus vimuttimagga.
Only to one who does not know the dhamma.

Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta did not have "Wrong Jhana" as in a different kind of jhana without 5 hindrances (which is not possible). They simply did not know the dhamma.
Suppose the river Aciravatī was full to the brim so a crow could drink from it. Then along comes a person who wants to cross over to the far shore. But they’d lie down wrapped in cloth from head to foot.

What do you think, Vāseṭṭha? Could that person cross over to the far shore?” “No, Master Gotama.”

“In the same way, the five hindrances are called ‘obstacles’ and ‘hindrances’ and ‘coverings’ and ‘shrouds’ in the training of the noble one. What five? The hindrances of sensual desire, ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, and doubt. These five hindrances are called ‘obstacles’ and ‘hindrances’ and ‘coverings’ and ‘shrouds’ in the training of the noble one.

The brahmins proficient in the three Vedas are hindered, obstructed, covered, and shrouded by these five hindrances. So long as they are so obstructed it’s impossible that they will, when the body breaks up, after death, be reborn in the company of Brahmā.
- DN 13

This is also why the vipassana movement is wrong and vipassana jhanas are nonsense.

Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta were reborn ABOVE the company of brahma and in the formless realm, thus they overcame the 5 hindrances. They just did not know the dhamma as in dependent origination and anicca, dukkha, anatta, and the four noble truths, and did not develop signless concentration of the heart (animitto and sunatta).

SarathW
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:22 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:18 am
budo wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:12 am
You can't get Jhana if you have the 5 hindrances, so "Wrong Jhana" doesn't exist.
The suttas appear to refer literally to wrong jhana.
In one of right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It seems wrong jhana is jhana without right view, that is, jhana with clinging to jhana as 'self' or 'mine'.
The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by SarathW » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:24 am

I think this sutta refers to a cat in concentration to catch a mouse.
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thang
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by thang » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:00 am

This is a Dhamma Talk on Wrong Concentration by Ven. U. Dhammajiva. But I couldn't listen it completely. Hope you will listen and comment.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

SarathW
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Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by SarathW » Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:14 am

It seems wrong jhana is jhana without right view, that is, jhana with clinging to jhana as 'self' or 'mine'.
There are some ascetics and brahmins who have wrong view, wrong thought, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, and wrong immersion. If they lead the spiritual life, they can’t win the fruit, regardless of whether they make a wish,
Ye hi keci, bhūmija, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā micchādiṭṭhino micchāsaṅkappā micchāvācā micchākammantā micchāājīvā micchāvāyāmā micchāsatī micchāsamādhino te āsañcepi karitvā brahmacariyaṃ caranti, abhabbā phalassa adhigamāya;

https://suttacentral.net/mn126/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

thang
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Wrong concentration.

Post by thang » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:56 pm

form wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:53 pm
This is also a difference between vishuddamagga versus vimuttimagga.
We are thankful if you could tell us briefly about this difference ?
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

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