Did Buddha say gods exist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thang
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by thang » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:36 am

form wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:41 pm
The Buddha supported evolution as seen in DN sutta about world creation. It is not created by a single being.
Here (in Buddhism) 'deva' means the beings of heavenly realms or heavenly beings not a creator as in Abrahamic religions.
Volo wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:22 am
K.R. Norman (Collective papers, II, 1-8) suggests that the text got corrupted and in some places "atthi devā" should be substituted by "atthi adhidevā" (there are "super-devas", like Sakka).
Even according to Norman's suggestion, the following part of the passage will not be changed. His suggestion is regarding the first answer of the Buddha and not about the following part. He has accepted the following part.
thang wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:26 pm
I think this part is enough to conclude.
[The Buddha says:]
viññūnā purisena ekaṃsena niṭṭhaṃ gantabbaṃ yadidaṃ atthi devāti.
  • a wise man can draw the definite conclusion that there are gods.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, _ all that is just so and NOT otherwise."

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Volo
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by Volo » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:24 am

thang wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:36 am
Even according to Norman's suggestion, the following part of the passage will not be changed. His suggestion is regarding the first answer of the Buddha and not about the following part. He has accepted the following part.
I think his suggestion is not about arguing with anything, but about trying to make sense of the dialogue described in the sutta. Because it's indeed not clear.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by AgarikaJ » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:30 am

Volo wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:24 am
thang wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:36 am
Even according to Norman's suggestion, the following part of the passage will not be changed. His suggestion is regarding the first answer of the Buddha and not about the following part. He has accepted the following part.
I think his suggestion is not about arguing with anything, but about trying to make sense of the dialogue described in the sutta. Because it's indeed not clear.
I Think Thang's entry is a very valid addition to the discussion. It is without doubt that gods exist in Theravda; their exact living place is known (see: The Thirty-one Planes of Existence).

As we have verbatim discourses the Buddha had with them in the Suttas, there is also no doubt he had direct knowledge of their existence, not just in a metaphysical faith sense (see: Sakka-pañha Sutta: Sakka's Questions).

People reaching higher attainments can reach their plane of existence and talk to them as well; so the insistence of the Buddha, that their existence should be general, verifiable kwowledge makes sense.

But they are simply not 'gods' in the way we in the West understand them; certainly they are not 'world creators'. A better translation would be 'heavenly beings', or Devas.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

form
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by form » Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:53 am

There is no doubt devas, beings of luminocity, formless beings exist in theravada. Some worshipped them so aka gods.

auto
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by auto » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:53 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato
But Master Gotama, do gods absolutely exist?”
Kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, atthi devā”ti?

“I’ve understood the existence of gods in terms of causes.”
“Ṭhānaso metaṃ, bhāradvāja, viditaṃ yadidaṃ— adhidevā”ti.

“But Master Gotama, when asked ‘Do gods exist?’ why did you say that you have understood the existence of gods in terms of causes?
“Kiṃ nu kho, bho gotama, ‘atthi devā’ti puṭṭho samāno ‘ṭhānaso metaṃ, bhāradvāja, viditaṃ yadidaṃ adhidevā’ti vadesi.

If that’s the case, isn’t it a hollow lie?”
Nanu, bho gotama, evaṃ sante tucchā musā hotī”ti?

“When asked ‘Do gods exist’, whether you reply ‘Gods exist’ or ‘I’ve understood it in terms of causes’
“‘Atthi devā’ti, bhāradvāja, puṭṭho samāno ‘atthi devā’ti yo vadeyya, ‘ṭhānaso me viditā’ti yo vadeyya;

a sensible person would come to the definite conclusion that
atha khvettha viññunā purisena ekaṃsena niṭṭhaṃ gantabbaṃ yadidaṃ:

gods exist.
” ‘atthi devā’”ti.

“But why didn’t you say that in the first place?”
“Kissa pana me bhavaṃ gotamo ādikeneva na byākāsī”ti?

“It’s widely agreed in the world that
“Uccena sammataṃ kho etaṃ, bhāradvāja, lokasmiṃ yadidaṃ:

gods exist.
” ‘atthi devā’”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.15/en/sujato
“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.
“Dvayanissito khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca.

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of non-existence regarding the world. Lokasamudayaṃ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā loke natthitā sā na hoti.

And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of existence regarding the world. Lokanirodhaṃ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato yā loke atthitā sā na hoti.

The world is for the most part shackled to attraction, grasping, and insisting.
Upayupādānābhinivesavinibandho khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena.
atthi seem to be about exist or not, and these notions are swayed by attraction, grasping, insisting. At that time the notion of gods exist was revered.
Perhaps because of authoritian belief that devas exist, when Buddha said that by Thanaso he knows then it was outrageous claim.


and it seem the persons who are swayed are those who cling to perception and sankharas, but who are clinging to vinnana can understand rightly when said gods exists it counts same as said as seen by origin and cessation.

auto
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Re: Did Buddha say gods exist?

Post by auto » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:10 pm

“Ṭhānaso metaṃ, bhāradvāja, viditaṃ yadidaṃ— adhidevā”ti.
its by surviving the waning period, diminution, calamity etc coming to know that gods exist. The dimension what is after laying down the burden.
Other words he doesn't see gods with own eyes or anything, but know it by just surviving what worldly beings can't overcome, that dimension is also a subject for beings, it is inhabitated by adhidevas.
atha khvettha viññunā purisena ekaṃsena niṭṭhaṃ gantabbaṃ yadidaṃ:
person whos vinnana has gone beyond gabbha to ayatana will understand.

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