If there is no self why defend your self ?

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sentinel
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If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:47 am

Now that you understand that there is no self but only the five aggregates , yet if being attack by others , still you will defend your self ?
:coffee:

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Dan74-MkII
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by Dan74-MkII » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:06 am

Well, I guess you should pose your question to an arahat.

The rest of us can only speculate based on our knowledge and understanding. My speculation is that although there is no more clinging to "I" and "mine", an arahat is driven by compassion including his or her responsibilities to the Sangha, etc. This is a good reason to defend against the attacker.

SarathW
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:13 am

"If they take my life with a sharp knife, I will think, 'There are disciples of the Blessed One who — horrified, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life — have sought for an assassin, but here I have met my assassin without searching for him.' [1] That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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one_awakening
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by one_awakening » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:02 am

The Buddha never said there was no self. In any case you would want to live so that you can continue to practice.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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SDC
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by SDC » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:33 am

He said, "All things are not-self".

Ignorance maintains holding things as self and the Buddha was very clear that ignorance needs to be uprooted by effort. Your question implies that you can decide to make the change. The Buddha taught that you cannot.

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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:32 pm

That is only an intellectual conclusion. Mere conclusions cant release one from the conditioning process. Conditions need to be uprooted by the culmination of the path.

imo
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

sentinel
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:45 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:13 am
"If they take my life with a sharp knife, I will think, 'There are disciples of the Blessed One who — horrified, humiliated, and disgusted by the body and by life — have sought for an assassin, but here I have met my assassin without searching for him.' [1] That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
This actually would contradict the upholding of the non killing precept spirit if one really Treasure life .
Why not avoids the assassin and live longer to spreads the dhamma ? Where is the Wisdom ?
Where is the compassion to help others to uproot ignorance then ?
:coffee:

sentinel
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by sentinel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:55 pm

SDC wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:33 am
He said, "All things are not-self".

Ignorance maintains holding things as self and the Buddha was very clear that ignorance needs to be uprooted by effort. Your question implies that you can decide to make the change. The Buddha taught that you cannot.
You can choose to Remain in samsara and Not following the path !
:coffee:

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SDC
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by SDC » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:01 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:55 pm
SDC wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:33 am
He said, "All things are not-self".

Ignorance maintains holding things as self and the Buddha was very clear that ignorance needs to be uprooted by effort. Your question implies that you can decide to make the change. The Buddha taught that you cannot.
You can choose to Remain in samsara and Not following the path !
Absolutely. People can decide to put in that effort to know and see, but they cannot decide to know and see. Major difference.

At most they could rationalize the possibility of not-self, which in itself can be misleading. Because the reality of not-self is not within that rational possibility, i.e. is isn't within the intellectual grasp. It is beyond intellect. It is at the level of intention, i.e. it is what determines rationale, so it can never appear directly on the level of intellect.

So believing in the rationale can grant the illusion of knowledge of not-self, but if it ignorance hasn't been uprooted, as soon as such a person is threatened, they will immediately descend to that established position of ignorance and defend Self.

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Zom
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by Zom » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:38 pm

Now that you understand that there is no self but only the five aggregates , yet if being attack by others , still you will defend your self ?
There is difference in understanding. Stream-winnders anatta understanding is one thing. Arahants' understanding is radically different in terms of depth.

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Bundokji
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:10 pm

I think an important distinction should be made. Setting aside whether there is a self or no self, it could be quite harmful both to others and to oneself if one is unable or unwilling to defend himself when attacked. We are a part of a system where our actions are often perceived as messages, and not reacting to aggressive behavior is sending the wrong messages, and i guess wisdom involves understanding this fact.

Being defensive is different though, and it is eliminated when one is completely free from self view in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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cappuccino
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:11 pm

No self is a misunderstanding.

Not self is right understanding.
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Greetings James,
James Tan wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:47 am
Now that you understand that there is no self but only the five aggregates , yet if being attack by others , still you will defend your self ?
It depends what you mean by "attack" - verbal, physical, reputational etc.?

It's worth noting that the Buddha was very rarely "fired up", but it appears that the times his language was particularly spicy was whenever he or his Dhamma was being misrepresented.
AN 10.75 wrote:“Ānanda, who is this laywoman Migasālā, a foolish incompetent matron, with a matron’s wit? And who is it that knows how to assess individuals?"
MN 38 wrote:"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."
MN 22 wrote:But you, O foolish man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly grasped. You have undermined your own (future) and have created much demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering for a long time.
Speaking of misunderstanding and misinterpretation, it's worth noting also that some of the Vinaya rules exist so as to safeguard (or "defend", to use your term) monastics against potential misrepresentation by the laity. So, despite being the Arahant, the Buddha still had concern for false accusations, misrepresentations and slander etc. and the complications and difficulties that these present.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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equilibrium
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by equilibrium » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:11 am

"No self".....is an extreme.....similar to "self"!.....a duality.
Teaching is about the middle-way.....transcending samsara.
Samsara v Nibbana.....isn't a duality!

chownah
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Re: If there is no self why defend your self ?

Post by chownah » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:51 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:47 am
Now that you understand that there is no self but only the five aggregates , yet if being attack by others , still you will defend your self ?
There is no need to fabricate the emotionally charged theoretical scenario of being attacked and to consider the need for defence. We are "defending" the self constantly. Obtaining food. clothing, and shelter....in short, anything which is condusive to continued life carried out in the manner of the worldling is a defence of self.
chownah

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