Sequence of suffering?

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samseva
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Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:28 am

As per the third of the Four Noble Truths, the cause of suffering is craving (taṇhā). With Dependent Origination (paṭiccasamuppāda), there is also clinging (upādāna), which follows/is conditioned by craving.

Does craving by itself cause dukkha (without necessarily there needing to be clinging)? Is it the case that both craving alone, as well as clinging alone (although having been conditioned by craving), each cause dukkha in their own right?

Still with Dependent Origination, sense-impression (phassa) is a condition for feeling (vedana), of which feeling is a condition for craving, with craving subsequently being a condition for clinging. 

From this, would it not be the case that the sequence of suffering would be both of the following:

Feeling - Craving - Feeling (as domanassa)
Feeling - Craving - Feeling (as domanassa) - Clinging - Feeling (as domanassa

Srilankaputra
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:03 am

craving by itself does not cause dukkha. Neither does clinging by itself. when, what ever is delighted in and clung to changes, that causes dukkha.

There is interest, delight and clinging to the khandas because there is craving. Craving for pleasure, craving for continued existence and some times craving annihilation.

enlightened ones also have unpleasant feelings. But there is no dukkha. because all feelings are not delighted in and clung to.


imo.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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Nicolas
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by Nicolas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:56 pm

My understanding is that craving is inherently dukkha, because "separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering", craving is a wanting that is inherently the expression of discontent.

santa100
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by santa100 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Depends on what context of Dukkha is being used: dukkha the entity (noun form as in the 4NT, 12DO), or dukkha the trait/attribute (adjective form as in 'Sabbe Sankhara Dukkha'). In the adjective sense, craving, clinging, etc. don't cause dukkha, they are dukkha (sabbe sankhara dukkha). In terms of dukkha the entity, 4NT says craving causes dukkha, but 12DO says craving is dependently originated, hence craving is the immediate cause but not the sole cause.

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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:57 am

Nicolas wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:56 pm
wanting that is inherently the expression of discontent.
Thank you! I think three of us understood different aspects of dukkha.
"There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
what samseva is talking about i think is 'the stressfulness of pain' or dukkhadukkhatā.

What i was talking about is 'the stressfulness of change' or vipariṇāmadukkhatā

What Nicolas is talking about is 'stressfulness of fabrication' or saṅkhāradukkhatā


your thoughts?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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samseva
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:01 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:03 am
craving by itself does not cause dukkha. Neither does clinging by itself.
Craving and clinging inherently cause suffering. Unless you are talking about the division of the mind moment, when there is craving and the proceeding conditions have not yet arisen (this occurring all in milliseconds)?
Srilankaputra wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:03 am
enlightened ones also have unpleasant feelings. But there is no dukkha. because all feelings are not delighted in and clung to.
An arahant cannot feel mental pain due to craving or clinging. I believe he can't even feel any mental pain at all, but only physical pain.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:08 am

samseva wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:28 am
Does craving by itself cause dukkha (without necessarily there needing to be clinging)?
Imo, no. The 2nd noble truth also refers to "becoming" ("bhava") & "delight" ("nandi"), which are the same has "attachment". For example, MN 38 says "delight in feelings is attachment". Therefore, imo, craving alone cannot cause suffering. Attachment & becoming must also arise for suffering to arise.
Nicolas wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:56 pm
My understanding is that craving is inherently dukkha, because "separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering", craving is a wanting that is inherently the expression of discontent.
The above translation appears suspect to me. I think it should read "separation from the loved". "The loved" is attachment. Not getting what "one" wants is also attachment & becoming. In the 1st noble truth, it appears all dukkha is summarised as attachment to the five aggregates. The suffering of separation from the loved appears to be craving for what was & is attached to.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:15 am, edited 5 times in total.
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samseva
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:09 am

Yes, there is dukkha as the characteristic, and dukkha as mental pain. Dukkha as pain can be further divided into suffering as pain (dukkhadukkhatā), suffering inherent in the formations (saṅkhāradukkhatā) and suffering in change (vipariṇāmadukkhatā), as per SN38.14.

What I'm talking about is suffering/dukkha as pain (mental pain, or domanassa), and its sequence in relation to its causes, based on Dependent Origination (paṭiccasamuppāda):

Dependent_Origination.jpg

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samseva
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:08 am
samseva wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:28 am
Does craving by itself cause dukkha (without necessarily there needing to be clinging)?
Imo, no. The 2nd noble truth also refers to "becoming" & "delight", which are the same has "attachment". For example, MN 38 says "delight in feelings is attachment". Therefore, imo, craving alone cannot cause suffering. Attachment & becoming must also arise for suffering to arise.
The process of becoming (bhāva) in paṭiccasamuppāda is more about volitional kamma, resulting in the creating of saṅkhāra (second link, as in its definition of 'karma-formations', and not the aggregate of saṅkhāra-kkhandha).

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DooDoot
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:22 am

samseva wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:14 am
The process of becoming (bhāva) in paṭiccasamuppāda...
My point is the 2nd noble truth includes becoming in it. Three versions:
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

SN 56.11
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One.

MN 44
And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

AN 3.61
Also, MN 148 appears to suggest craving can be known without suffering, as follows:
The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known.

If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

MN 148
The 1st noble truth appears to summarise all suffering as attachment, as follows:
In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

SN 56.11
MN 140, without mentioning craving; only mentioning attachment:
'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'... is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.

MN 140
:alien:
samseva wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:14 am
The process of becoming (bhāva) in paṭiccasamuppāda is more about volitional kamma, resulting in the creating of saṅkhāra (second link, as in its definition of 'karma-formations', and not the aggregate of saṅkhāra-kkhandha).
The above appears to be interpretation rather than sutta. Sutta does not contain the word "kamma" in the second link of paṭiccasamuppāda. "Bhava" is the 10th link.
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form
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by form » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:50 am

Fixed expectation deposited (from past) > when current experience dun meet expectation > dukka

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samseva
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:08 am
samseva wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:28 am
Does craving by itself cause dukkha (without necessarily there needing to be clinging)?
Imo, no. The 2nd noble truth also refers to "becoming" ("bhava") & "delight" ("nandi"), which are the same has "attachment". For example, MN 38 says "delight in feelings is attachment". Therefore, imo, craving alone cannot cause suffering. Attachment & becoming must also arise for suffering to arise.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:22 am
My point is the 2nd noble truth includes becoming in it. Three versions:
[...]
Yes, but re the bolded part in your initial post, there is nothing in the passages you quoted that overtly say that clinging and bhāva are a requirement for suffering. The passages are English translations/terminology, which could mean different things even from one Sutta passage to another.
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:08 am
samseva wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:14 am
The process of becoming (bhāva) in paṭiccasamuppāda is more about volitional kamma, resulting in the creating of saṅkhāra (second link, as in its definition of 'karma-formations', and not the aggregate of saṅkhāra-kkhandha).
The above appears to be interpretation rather than sutta. Sutta does not contain the word "kamma" in the second link of paṭiccasamuppāda. "Bhava" is the 10th link.
I'd have to look into it to find passages, but this is beside the point.

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DooDoot
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:54 am

samseva wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:58 am
there is nothing in the passages you quoted that overtly say that clinging and bhāva are a requirement for suffering.
You started a topic & I provided an answer. The sutta quotes cannot be any more explicit to me.
in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering..

SN 56.11 https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi
Its not:
in brief, the five aggregates subject to craving are suffering.
How can the following be any more explicit? :shrug:
And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

AN 3.61

Its not:
And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

AN 3.61
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by sentinel » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:07 am

According to bhikkhu vupasama (I listened to his talks) , where the clinging is (the I am is) , therefore , the suffering comes to be .
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samseva
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Re: Sequence of suffering?

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:17 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:54 am
The sutta quotes cannot be any more explicit to me.
in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering..

SN 56.11 https://suttacentral.net/sn56.11/en/bodhi
Its not:
in brief, the five aggregates subject to craving are suffering.
How can the following be any more explicit? :shrug:
Its not:
And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

AN 3.61
Yes, the five aggregatesare a source of, and are suffering. And also, like with the passage you quoted, with the condition of craving, it is possible for there to arise 'sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress and despair'.

However, you said:
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:54 am
Therefore, imo, craving alone cannot cause suffering. Attachment & becoming must also arise for suffering to arise.
None of the passages you quoted come close to explicitly stating that for there to be suffering, there must be both clinging/upāndāna and bhāva—this is a substantial claim that requires substantial proof. I'm not saying it's false; I'm just saying there is nothing to support your inference that upādanā and bhāva are both requirements for suffering to arise, and that without them suffering cannot arise.

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