Patisambhidamagga, anyone?

[Manopubbangama]

Anyone have a copy?

[Srilankaputra]

https://tipitaka.fandom.com/wiki/Patisambhidamagga

[Manopubbangama]

https://tipitaka.fandom.com/wiki/Patisambhidamagga

Thank you friend.

[DooDoot]

Interesting read. Too bad the translator did not understand what they (inaccurately) translated.

[Dhammanando]

It took me a long time to really "get" the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and Warder's heavy-going introduction wasn't a lot of help in this. It's perhaps better to read Warder's piece after one has read the text itself. What did prove to be of great help in my coming to appreciate the text were the several discussions of it in The Buddhist Path to Awakening, Rupert Gethin's book on the thirty-seven bodhipakkhiyā dhammā.

The Paṭisambhidāmagga is a frustrating text to use if one is trying to cull specific facts and pieces of information from its pages. This is well illustrated by the bojjhaṅgakathā, which begins by simply listing the seven bojjhaṅgas. It then asks in what sense they are bojjhaṅgas. Nearly the whole of the kathā is devoted to answering this question. I have counted that there are in fact 609 answers – that is, 609 senses in which the bojjhaṅgas are bojjhaṅgas. The initial twenty-seven centre around words and notions derived from the root budh, but the next 200 range rather wider. These are followed by answers based on the 382 items of the full list C. In short, the Paṭisambhidāmagga appears to relate the bojjhaṅgas to everything it can think of.

In order to begin to make sense of its method, it appears that one needs to ask not so much what it says but what it does. It is clear that in the Paṭisambhidāmagga the full list C, and especially its final portion (= list B) is intended to focus on the path to awakening in general, and the nature of the awakening experience in particular - list B is consistently related to the transcendent stages. One thing that seems to follow from the Paṭisambhidāmagga's method is that the awakening experience must be understood as an experience of many different dimensions and many different aspects. It is an experience of many facets and subtleties. It is an experience of great richness and, above all, of great depth. It is sometimes suggested that one of the universals of mystical literature is the claim that the highest mystical experience is ineffable, beyond language. The effect of the Paṭisambhidāmagga's treatment is not entirely dissimilar. So much is said about the awakening experience, that what is said defies simple description. In this respect its technique has something in common with some of the prajñāpāramitā texts.

At the same time as suggesting the richness and depth of the awakening experience the Paṭisambhidāmagga also suggests something of its simplicity. All the different dimensions are woven into a coherent whole. All the different aspects simply follow from the fullness and completeness of what is yet one simple moment of 'awakening'. The Paṭisambhidāmagga is thus a classic ekābhisamayā [‘sudden enlightenment’] text. The awakening experience is simple, unitary, self-contained and complete in itself. Even so the constitution of the extended lists in the Paṭisambhidāmagga shows how the awakening experience is related to the whole of the teaching, to the whole of the path from beginning to end. The Paṭisambhidāmagga thus develops a way of thinking that I have already suggested is inherent in the understanding of the noble eight-factored path in the four Nikāyas and later finds expression in Buddhaghosa's treatment of the moment of the transcendent path as the fulfilment of that which contributes to awakening (bodhipakkhiya-paripuṇṇa-bhāva).
(Gethin pp. 311-12)

[sentinel]

Does this can be found in Chinese translation ?
Does it has like agama parallel ?

[Volo]

It took me a long time to really "get" the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and Warder's heavy-going introduction wasn't a lot of help in this. It's perhaps better to read Warder's piece after one has read the text itself. What did prove to be of great help in my coming to appreciate the text were the several discussions of it in The Buddhist Path to Awakening, Rupert Gethin's book on the thirty-seven bodhipakkhiyā dhammā.

Thanks, bhante, it's interesting. From what I remember in my attempt to read Ptsmb, in the introduction it was said, that Ñanamoli's translation was a kind of draft found in his papers after his death, and it was even difficult to understand what was written due to his copious editing. So, it seems he wasn't finished with it. This stopped me from reading the text itself. What is your opinion about the quality of Ñanamoli's translation?

[Dhammanando]

Does this can be found in Chinese translation ?
Does it has like agama parallel ?

On Sutta Central only the Dhamma­cakka­pavattana­vāra (i.e., the Buddha's first sermon followed by the Paṭisambhidāmagga's canonical commentary to it) is listed as having parallels. But even here I don't know if the parallels are merely to the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (which would of course be no surprise) or to the canonical commentary too.

[Dhammanando]

What is your opinion about the quality of Ñanamoli's translation?

I find a high degree of accuracy in the translator's construal of the Pali grammar and syntax. What makes it off-putting to many readers is his flirtation with dubious experimental renderings of technical terms. But it's not a big problem, for at least Ñāṇamoli has gone for consistency in this; so one just needs to get used to the fact that by, say, "ideas", he means dhammā, or by "the True Idea" he means dhammo, etc.

Ideally it's best to read the translation alongside the Pali text or else familiarise oneself in advance with the translator's glossary at the end of the book.

[Manopubbangama]

It took me a long time to really "get" the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and Warder's heavy-going introduction wasn't a lot of help in this. It's perhaps better to read Warder's piece after one has read the text itself. What did prove to be of great help in my coming to appreciate the text were the several discussions of it in The Buddhist Path to Awakening, Rupert Gethin's book on the thirty-seven bodhipakkhiyā dhammā.

The Paṭisambhidāmagga is a frustrating text to use if one is trying to cull specific facts and pieces of information from its pages. This is well illustrated by the bojjhaṅgakathā, which begins by simply listing the seven bojjhaṅgas. It then asks in what sense they are bojjhaṅgas. Nearly the whole of the kathā is devoted to answering this question. I have counted that there are in fact 609 answers – that is, 609 senses in which the bojjhaṅgas are bojjhaṅgas. The initial twenty-seven centre around words and notions derived from the root budh, but the next 200 range rather wider. These are followed by answers based on the 382 items of the full list C. In short, the Paṭisambhidāmagga appears to relate the bojjhaṅgas to everything it can think of.

In order to begin to make sense of its method, it appears that one needs to ask not so much what it says but what it does. It is clear that in the Paṭisambhidāmagga the full list C, and especially its final portion (= list B) is intended to focus on the path to awakening in general, and the nature of the awakening experience in particular - list B is consistently related to the transcendent stages. One thing that seems to follow from the Paṭisambhidāmagga's method is that the awakening experience must be understood as an experience of many different dimensions and many different aspects. It is an experience of many facets and subtleties. It is an experience of great richness and, above all, of great depth. It is sometimes suggested that one of the universals of mystical literature is the claim that the highest mystical experience is ineffable, beyond language. The effect of the Paṭisambhidāmagga's treatment is not entirely dissimilar. So much is said about the awakening experience, that what is said defies simple description. In this respect its technique has something in common with some of the prajñāpāramitā texts.

At the same time as suggesting the richness and depth of the awakening experience the Paṭisambhidāmagga also suggests something of its simplicity. All the different dimensions are woven into a coherent whole. All the different aspects simply follow from the fullness and completeness of what is yet one simple moment of 'awakening'. The Paṭisambhidāmagga is thus a classic ekābhisamayā [‘sudden enlightenment’] text. The awakening experience is simple, unitary, self-contained and complete in itself. Even so the constitution of the extended lists in the Paṭisambhidāmagga shows how the awakening experience is related to the whole of the teaching, to the whole of the path from beginning to end. The Paṭisambhidāmagga thus develops a way of thinking that I have already suggested is inherent in the understanding of the noble eight-factored path in the four Nikāyas and later finds expression in Buddhaghosa's treatment of the moment of the transcendent path as the fulfilment of that which contributes to awakening (bodhipakkhiya-paripuṇṇa-bhāva).
(Gethin pp. 311-12)

Too late for me, I read the into already.

Kinda wish I could unsee it now, like when seeing a Thai lady peeing standing up.

[Dhammanando]

Too late for me, I read the into already.

Not to worry. I didn't mean to suggest that reading it would handicap you, but merely that: (1) Compared with Gethin I don't think Warder is particularly helpful in orienting the reader, and (2) some readers find him so boring that having read his intro they abandon their plan to read the text.

[Manopubbangama]

Too late for me, I read the into already.

Not to worry. I didn't mean to suggest that reading it would handicap you, but merely that: (1) Compared with Gethin I don't think Warder is particularly helpful in orienting the reader, and (2) some readers find him so boring that having read his intro they abandon their plan to read the text.

Thank you for clarifying, Bhante.

[sentinel]

Does this can be found in Chinese translation ?
Does it has like agama parallel ?

On Sutta Central only the Dhamma­cakka­pavattana­vāra (i.e., the Buddha's first sermon followed by the Paṭisambhidāmagga's canonical commentary to it) is listed as having parallels. But even here I don't know if the parallels are merely to the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (which would of course be no surprise) or to the canonical commentary too.

Thank you venerable .