arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

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sentinel
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arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 am

Hello members ,

The physical body of an arhat still affected by sicknesses , such as cancer , would it be possible for an arhat to be afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ? Dementia like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's .
If arhat can't retain his memory what then ?
If so , does losses of memories means losses of liberation ?

If the brains of arhat get damaged or partially wounded , does the state of the mind still retain the same as liberation ?
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:31 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 am
Hello members ,

The physical body of an arhat still affected by sicknesses , such as cancer , would it be possible for an arhat to be afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ? Dementia like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's .
If arhat can't retain his memory what then ?
If so , does losses of memories means losses of liberation ?

If the brains of arhat get damaged or partially wounded , does the state of the mind still retain the same as liberation ?
Hello,

To answer this, I first need to be in an arahant's shoes. :thinking:

After trying to put my feet in an arahant's shoes, the answer is "oh, your feet are just too dirty!!" :rofl:

imho, he will always be still liberated (from the tentacles of kilesas) whatever the disease may be. His memory may be dim, but cannot be affected by dim memory to cause unwholesomeness. He may have perceptual disturbances due to failing nerves, trembling hands of parkinson or betraying organs, but cannot be affected by these perceptual disturbances, trembling hands, nor betraying organs to cause unwholesomeness of the mind. Just a hypothetical answer (wearing a quite dirty feet) to a hypothetical (but very reasonable) question.

ps: here mind sense objects vs. mind sense door (or) mental objects vs. "mind" -- may need to be considered separately. That "mind" can never be purterbed again in terms of kilesas, whatsoever the mental objects [and other sense objects] may be.

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Metta,
.


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sentinel
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by sentinel » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:09 pm

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:31 pm
Just a hypothetical answer (wearing a quite dirty feet) to a hypothetical (but very reasonable) question.

ps: here mind sense objects vs. mind sense door (or) mental objects vs. "mind" -- may need to be considered separately. That "mind" can never be purterbed again in terms of kilesas, whatsoever the mental objects [and other sense objects] may be.

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Metta,
Hypothetically one May lose the liberation when the mind/brain is not working anymore .

Most of the time we are going through hypothetical situation so to arrive at hypothetical of something .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:43 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:09 pm
Most of the time we are going through hypothetical situation so to arrive at hypothetical of something .
Yep, It reflects my situation, most of the time, especially while arguing happily on dhammawheel :lol:
But, on rare occasions whenever I happen to practice dhamma I find myself in less hypothetical situation, directly "wrestling" with the real ones. :juggling:

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.


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Self ...
  • "an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" :D ~ MN22

justindesilva
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:46 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 am
Hello members ,

The physical body of an arhat still affected by sicknesses , such as cancer , would it be possible for an arhat to be afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ? Dementia like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's .
If arhat can't retain his memory what then ?
If so , does losses of memories means losses of liberation ?

If the brains of arhat get damaged or partially wounded , does the state of the mind still retain the same as liberation ?
This question is possible one in a million times and further neuro degen. Disease does not affect brain damage always. A close friend of mine with this decease who died recently been a professor lectured for a number of years from a wheel chare and he told me that he remembered his lecture notes from memory. So what more for an arhant ?

santa100
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 pm

James Tan wrote:If the brains of arhat get damaged or partially wounded , does the state of the mind still retain the same as liberation ?
Notice if one's gotten to the level of arahantship, his mind power is not only present at the superficial outer level of consciousness. It's penetrated deep into his subconsciousness and become second nature. Sorta like a master pianist who might develop dementia but still play perfect music due to the built in finger memory after so many years of training, or a master martial artist who might become sick and frail in old age but still have quick instant reflex to evade incoming blows because the reflex has become second nature to him. Similarly for arahants. They no longer have to think. They just are.

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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:14 pm

Arahant has uprooted craving, root and all. It can no more arise again. what ever happens to the physical body.

IMO
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

dharmacorps
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by dharmacorps » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 pm

Very difficult question to answer, especially since we don't really know what causes dementia, or all that much about what the interior experience of alzheimers is like, and we don't really know who is an arahant or not. If arahants never got alzheimers, we wouldn't really know it. Or, if arahants were able to stave off alzheimers by their concentration and mindfulness, I doubt they would tell you they did so.

It may be possible though to lose ones memory, but keep intact the qualities of the heart that the Buddhist path is intended to cultivate. Ajahn Chah was widely regarded as an arahant and had multiple strokes resulting in trouble speaking or bizarre speech when he tried to talk. Many who know him believe he stopped speaking because his disorganized speech upset people, rather than a physical inability to speak.

form
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by form » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:59 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:29 pm
Very difficult question to answer, especially since we don't really know what causes dementia, or all that much about what the interior experience of alzheimers is like, and we don't really know who is an arahant or not. If arahants never got alzheimers, we wouldn't really know it. Or, if arahants were able to stave off alzheimers by their concentration and mindfulness, I doubt they would tell you they did so.

It may be possible though to lose ones memory, but keep intact the qualities of the heart that the Buddhist path is intended to cultivate. Ajahn Chah was widely regarded as an arahant and had multiple strokes resulting in trouble speaking or bizarre speech when he tried to talk. Many who know him believe he stopped speaking because his disorganized speech upset people, rather than a physical inability to speak.
I dun recall reading about any arahat that has neural degenarative disease in the sutta could be none of them had that.

Anurruddin was described as blind in the mahayana, but not in pali accounts.

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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:11 pm

Are there any accounts in Sutta an Arahant suffered from dementia or get drunk and loose his mind?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

form
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by form » Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:32 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:11 pm
Are there any accounts in Sutta an Arahant suffered from dementia or get drunk and loose his mind?
No.

thepea
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by thepea » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 am

form wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:32 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:11 pm
Are there any accounts in Sutta an Arahant suffered from dementia or get drunk and loose his mind?
No.
The 8-fold path is a cure to mental disorders, body can suffer and deteriorate but mind is clean and pure.
You could capture an arahant and force alcohol into their system, the body would suffer the effects but mind would be pure and clean.
Christ was tortured to death and mind kept clean and pure.

form
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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by form » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:22 am

thepea wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 am
form wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:32 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:11 pm
Are there any accounts in Sutta an Arahant suffered from dementia or get drunk and loose his mind?
No.
The 8-fold path is a cure to mental disorders, body can suffer and deteriorate but mind is clean and pure.
You could capture an arahant and force alcohol into their system, the body would suffer the effects but mind would be pure and clean.
Christ was tortured to death and mind kept clean and pure.
Yes. Provided their nervous system is in proper order when practicing the path till the end. In the sutta, the Buddha have mentioned that starting younger and healthier is easier.

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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by pegembara » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:03 am

The arahant has woken up from the dream of existence. Like Humpty Dumpty, he/she cannot be put together again. The pieces remain broken.

IMO
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: arhat afflicted with neurodegenerative diseases ?

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:32 am

I don't remember reading of any such cases in the Suttas, but in recent times, there is the case of Ajahn Chah. He went into a bedridden state, I think even a coma and finally passed away after 10 years in that state. His body was very ill and he was completely still, perhaps in a jhana-like state and then passed. Many of his followers believe he was an arahant or other highly realized state, so it is possible that his mind was completely at peace and still had the mind of an arahant or near arahant, even though his body was not well.

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