Does consciousness exist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:07 pm
“Mind” or “consciousness” clings to the aggregates and identifies “itself” with them. By fully recognizing and realizing its innate “detachment” from the aggregates, it is ultimately “released”, and can finally attain the absolute “cessation” (nirodha) of its individuated “natural evolutionary” functions: hence, for example, the expression “mind-liberation” (ceto-vimutti), which in the suttas is equivalent to attaining the condition of Nibbāna.

K. Nizamis
that mind is citta what identifies(explores), and the what it identifies with is dhatu and there is consciousness as ayatana. The 18 dhatus are the 6 ayatanas times the sukha, dukkha and adukkhamasukha.

the detachment, dispassion is about the dukkha, aversion to the world; loka. adukkhamasukha is ignorance, delusion.

nirodha means cessation of dukkha. Then you will work with the nibbana, first of you need generate equivalent substance it is adukkhamasukha and being able to let that substance rise separating heavy from light, like letting go of the helium filled balloon, that feeling of letting the heavy weight to drop and light to rise(when in underwater in case of no helium balloon or fast driving on a car and descending slope of a road etc).

auto
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:23 pm
auto wrote: consciousness is created thing.
why would you say this?

there never was an alternative
i said it because i read this sentence,

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.94/en/sujato
And what do the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, natthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ, yamahaṃ ‘natthī’ti vadāmi?
i then went to dictionary to look out word loke.

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cappuccino
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by cappuccino »

And what do the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist? Form that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. Feeling … Perception … Choices … Consciousness that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. This is what the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist.
in other words, consciousness is inconstant

changing, altering, moment to moment

auto
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:29 pm
And what do the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist? Form that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. Feeling … Perception … Choices … Consciousness that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. This is what the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist.
in other words, consciousness is inconstant

changing, altering, moment to moment
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/u/upādāna
Upādāna,(nt.) [fr.upa + ā + dā] -- (lit.that (material) substratum by means of which an active process is kept alive or going),fuel,supply,provision; adj.(-°) supported by,drawing one’s existence from S.I,69; II 85 (aggikkhandho °assa pariyādānā by means of taking up fuel); V,284 (vāt°); J.III,342 sa-upādāna (adj.) provided with fuel S.IV,399; anupādāna without fuel DhA.II,163.‹-› 2.(appld.) “drawing upon”,grasping,holding on,grip,attachment; adj.(-°) finding one’s support by or in,clinging to,taking up,nourished by.See on term Dhs.trsln. 323 & Cpd.171.They are classified as 4 upādānāni or four Graspings viz.kām°,diṭṭh°,sīlabbat°,attavād° or the graspings arising from sense-desires,speculation,belief in rites,belief in the soul-theory D.II,58; III,230; M.I,51,66; S.II,3; V 59; Dhs.1213; Ps.I,129; II,46,47; Vbh.375; Nett 48; Vism.569.-- For upādāna in var.connections see the foll.passages:D.I,25; II,31,33,56; III,278; M.I,66,136 (attavād°) 266; S.II,14,17,30,85; III,10,13 sq.,101,135,167,191; IV,32,87 sq.,102 (tannissitaṁ viññāṇaṁ tadupādānaṁ),390,400 (= taṇhā); A.IV,69; V,111 (upāy°); Sn.170,358,546; Ps.I,51 sq.,193; II,45 sq,113; Vbh.18,30,67,79,119,132; Dhs.1059,1136,1213,1536 sq.; Nett 28 sq.,41 sq.,114 sq.; DhA.IV,194.-- sa° full of attachment (to life) M.I,65; Vin.III,111; S.IV,102; an° unattached,not showing attachment to existence S.IV,399; Vin.III,111; Th.1,840; Miln.32; DA.I,98.
---
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/sujato
Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of consciousness.

Yaṃ kiñci viññāṇaṃ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṃ ajjhattaṃ vā bahiddhā vā oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā yaṃ dūre santike vā, ayaṃ vuccati viññāṇakkhandho.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.94/en/sujato
And what do the astute agree on as existing, which I too say exists?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ, yamahaṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi?

Form that is impermanent, suffering, and perishable.
Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ; ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi.

see the point is the qualities like altering changing etc is what you can recon that thing is not relyable source, like a teacher who uses logic or other means is not relyable since sometimes it is good, sometimes not so good.

same is with jhana factors you discard them because they are fabricated and not giving a lasting result climbing into better and better places and jhanas this way.

just believing there is no soul isn't relyable for me, i need more and better support than just knowing that there is next life and better things waiting for me.
Last edited by auto on Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SamKR
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by SamKR »

Translating vinnana as "consciousness" is causing a lot of confusion. Is there a better English word for vinnana? I would prefer "dualistic knowing" or "discriminative knowing" (based on the meaning of vinnana) though it sounds clumsy and I am not a native English speaker, so I am not sure.

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cappuccino
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by cappuccino »

1 - Consciousness is inconstant
2 - Types of consciousness are dependently arisen
3 - Consciousness isn't annihilated
4 - Nirvana is the unconditioned consciousness

auto
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:33 pm
1 - Consciousness is inconstant
2 - Types of consciousness are dependently arisen
3 - Consciousness isn't annihilated
4 - Nirvana is the unconditioned consciousness
when aggregate is accompanied with asavas, that is clinging aggregate. Unconditioned is without asavas. Easy peasy, but it doesn't blow my mind and i don't feel happy..

So what i shall do?

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cappuccino
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by cappuccino »

this teaching is paradoxical, difficult

try to see the paradox

auto
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by auto »

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:43 pm
this teaching is paradoxical, difficult

try to see the paradox
ah i actually have gotten past that stage, i know how to deal with this. Couple years back i would have causes ruckus.

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Nicolas
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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by Nicolas »

SamKR wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Translating vinnana as "consciousness" is causing a lot of confusion. Is there a better English word for vinnana? I would prefer "dualistic knowing" or "discriminative knowing" (based on the meaning of vinnana) though it sounds clumsy and I am not a native English speaker, so I am not sure.
Hi SamKR!
Vinnana can be synonymous with citta and mano:
Assutavā Sutta (SN 12.61) wrote: But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘citta’ and ‘mano’ and ‘viññāṇa’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.
... so I am satisfied with the word "consciousness" as its translation.

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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by alfa »

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:00 pm
Greetings Dinsdale,
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:14 am
Obviously consciousness is dependently originated in the suttas, but are you saying that Nibbana = cessation of consciousness?
Yes, it's called vinnana-nirodha.
Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:14 am
Are you saying the Arahant isn't conscious of anything?
Moreover, not ignorantly conscious of any thing because they're not ignorantly conceiving any thing to be conscious of... unless they actually do want to conceive things, in which case it's not done ignorantly, and its abhisankhara-vinnana.

Metta,
Paul. :)
If nirvana is the cessation of consciousness, then how is it different from a stone-like existence? Isn't it like saying we will be like inert objects once we attain nirvana?

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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
alfa wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:16 am
If nirvana is the cessation of consciousness, then how is it different from a stone-like existence? Isn't it like saying we will be like inert objects once we attain nirvana?
No, this merely reflects a misunderstanding of what viññāṇa is in the Buddha's teaching, and a failure to investigate and understand what abhisaṅkhata-viññāṇa and anidassana-viññāṇa mean.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: a failure to investigate and understand what abhisaṅkhata-viññāṇa and anidassana-viññāṇa mean.
constructed by the mind?

Non-manifestative consciousness?

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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:09 am
retrofuturist wrote: a failure to investigate and understand what abhisaṅkhata-viññāṇa and anidassana-viññāṇa mean.
constructed by the mind?

Non-manifestative consciousness?
Yes, and yes. If these modes of consciousness are understood, questions such as that posed above by Alfa and Dinsdale would not need to be asked.

For anyone who still thinks that the cessation of viññāṇa would lead one to being deaf, dumb and blind, I refer them to AN 10.6 which refutes such an erroneous conclusion.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Does consciousness exist?

Post by cappuccino »

Bhante, could a bhikkhu obtain such a state of concentration that … he would not be percipient of X Y Z … but he would still be percipient?”

“He could, Ānanda.” AN 10.6
OK

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