Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5193
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:57 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:35 am
Secondly, it is said the Buddha was the perfect teacher. This is the Dhamma Refuge. If this teaching in SN 15.13 does not bring the result found in the sutta then, to me, it is unlikely the Buddha ever spoke it.
In this case, the idea of rebirth is rejected because the suttas have too much rebirth in them.
Thanks Mano. I don't reject 'rebirth'. But I do reject SN 15.13 as a teaching of the Buddha because I believe the teaching in it cannot bring the result in it. If I believe I was a water-buffalo in a past life, how can that end the taint of becoming; as described in SN 15.13?

I politely answered your question but you never answered my question. You have not explained how believing you were a water-buffalo in a past life results in the ending the taint of becoming and arahantship?
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:35 am
Why are people that ask for an explanation derided as "faith-zealots"?
I politely answered your question but you never answered my question. You have not explained how believing you were a water-buffalo in a past life results in the ending the taint of becoming and arahantship? I think this qualifies as as "faith-zealot"; where a person does not provide an explanation for their view. Its like when I went to Catholic school and was taught no sex before marriage because Jesus said so.

Therefore please explain how the teaching in SN 15.13 results in the destruction of the taints & arahantship. If you provide a compelling explanation then you might bring me into the true light & path. Thanks :) :heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:03 am, edited 8 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 21190
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:58 am

Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:53 am
So are you saying that codification at the 1st Buddhist council is your criteria for "if the Buddha said it?" The 2nd council?

I still don't know, I guess the 3rd council is too late for verifiable authenticity?
Something literally coming out of nowhere at the 3rd council, three centuries after the Buddha's passing is reason for me to doubt its traceability to the Buddha.

It reminds me of the Mahayana Sutras which came literally out of nowhere, to be discovered under a rock by a magical naga. Which in turn raises the question, what objective criteria is there for believing our team's magickal folklore, over that of another?

Later traditions have an penchant for shoving words into the mouths of past bhikkhus, and regrettably it appears Theravada is not an exception to that rule. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, if people quote the source of scripture or commentary, then the reader can determine these matters for themselves. There is no need for any consensus, and certainly no compulsion (from me at least) to control and convert others to my way of thinking... such urges are a long way from dispassion and release.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

User avatar
bridif1
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:42 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by bridif1 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:00 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:45 am
Friend, this post is another ad-hominum attack.

I would think that someone that is scholarly could at least defend their views and attacks on others' view with more than just saying "if it feels good to me its a good sutta, and the Buddha said it."

What is the criteria you use for rejecting so much of the suttas?
Hi Manopubbangama!

I don't speak for DooDoot, but about what DooDoot seems to be saying.

Both in this and in the other post about "rebirth", it seems clear to me that the criteria shown is that if a teaching cannot be tested and verified "here & now" by the observant itself, then that teaching should be discarded as non-dhammic.
What does "verifying" means?
It means to put any idea in test to see if it leads to the ending of the kilesas and nivaranas, and so, to the ending of suffering.

Since there is no way to be sure if some text or teaching was explicitly said by the Buddha himself, then I think the wisest thing to do is to test by ourselves if some teaching deserves to be considered as conducive to liberation (as Dhamma).

Have a wonderful day!

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:58 am
Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:53 am
So are you saying that codification at the 1st Buddhist council is your criteria for "if the Buddha said it?" The 2nd council?

I still don't know, I guess the 3rd council is too late for verifiable authenticity?
Something literally coming out of nowhere at the 3rd council, three centuries after the Buddha's passing is reason for me to doubt its traceability to the Buddha.

It reminds me of the Mahayana Sutras which came literally out of nowhere, to by discovered under a rock by a magical naga.

Later traditions have an penchant for shoving words into the mouths of past bhikkhus, and regrettably it appears Theravada is not an exception to that rule. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, if people quote the source of scripture or commentary, then the reader can determine these matters for themselves. There is no need for any consensus, and certainly no compulsion (from me at least) to control and convert others to my way of thinking... such urges are a long way from dispassion and release.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I agree with you about no reason to make anyone think anything. I don't want to convert anyone to anything at all.

I just still don't know what the criteria is for judging the authenticity of the various tipitika material?

Is it based on which council it was codified at?

Or is it based on a feeling? If we like it, its authentic?

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 3100
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by robertk » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:04 am

We have evidence that the Abhidhamma was recited at the first council, I believe.

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am

bridif1 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:00 am


Both in this and in the other post about "rebirth", it seems clear to me that the criteria shown is that if a teaching cannot be tested and verified "here & now" by the observant itself, then that teaching should be discarded as non-dhammic.
So is that it? If it doesn't feel right immediately, the sutta is non-dhammic?

Is that what Doodoot is saying?

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5193
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 am
I just still don't know what the criteria is for judging the authenticity of the various tipitika material?

Is it based on which council it was codified at?

Or is it based on a feeling? If we like it, its authentic?
Manopubbangama

I think you need to contribute scripture material (quotes) to the topic. You appear to be expecting others to do all of the work.

As I said, if you personally have not read the Abhidhamma then I can't see the point of your questions.

Kind regards. With metta :heart:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:07 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:04 am
Well we have evidence that the Abhidhamma was recited at the first council.
Robertk, I know we do.

I'm just not adding this to the conversation, however, because I still don't know why some users on this forum have a right to say "You are wrong and ignorant" for quoting a sutta and then quote another sutta in the same sentence followed by condencending insulting wrong speech.

It seems like arbitrary fundamentalism, to me.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5193
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:07 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am
Is that what Doodoot is saying?
No. I am not saying this. I am just saying that faith-zealots appear to reject the notion of the here-&-now doctrine. :ugeek:
robertk wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:04 am
We have evidence that the Abhidhamma was recited at the first council, I believe.
Possibly. But I think the onus is on Manopubbangama to provide Abhidhamma for comparative analysis and discussion.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 am
I just still don't know what the criteria is for judging the authenticity of the various tipitika material?

Is it based on which council it was codified at?

Or is it based on a feeling? If we like it, its authentic?
Manopubbangama

I think you need to contribute scripture material (quotes) to the topic. You appear to be expecting others to do all of the work.

As I said, if you personally have not read the Abhidhamma then I can't see the point of your questions.

Kind regards. With metta :heart:
Where did I say I haven't read the abhidhamma?

I'm still waiting to hear the criteria for rejection of suttanta?

Isn't that what the thread is about? internet posters who reject suttanta material becuase it doesn't fit with their worldview and their criteria for rejecting it?

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:07 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am
Is that what Doodoot is saying?
No. I am not saying this. I am just saying that faith-zealots appear to reject the notion of the here-&-now doctrine. :ugeek:
So people who don't agree with you are faith-zealots?

Doesn't using pejorative ad-hominums to describe people who don't follow your opinion kind of fundamentalist behavior?
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5193
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 am
Where did I say I haven't read the abhidhamma?

I'm still waiting to hear the criteria for rejection of suttanta?

Isn't that what the thread is about? internet posters who reject suttanta material becuase it doesn't fit with their worldview and their criteria for rejecting it?
Thanks Manopubbangama. Its rain like crazy here. I was meditating but I had to look outside and clear up some water blockages and then check the rain radar. Have a good day. If you have some Abhidhamma quotes to contribute, I am also happy to contribute.

:anjali:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
bridif1
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:42 pm

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by bridif1 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am
bridif1 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:00 am


Both in this and in the other post about "rebirth", it seems clear to me that the criteria shown is that if a teaching cannot be tested and verified "here & now" by the observant itself, then that teaching should be discarded as non-dhammic.
So is that it? If it doesn't feel right immediately, the sutta is non-dhammic?

Is that what Doodoot is saying?
Hi!

As I said, I cannot speak for DD.

But if you ask me, I say that the criteria mentioned by me in my last reply is key to walk the path, and to discern right from wrong.

Kind regards!

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:12 am

bridif1 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:05 am
bridif1 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:00 am


Both in this and in the other post about "rebirth", it seems clear to me that the criteria shown is that if a teaching cannot be tested and verified "here & now" by the observant itself, then that teaching should be discarded as non-dhammic.
So is that it? If it doesn't feel right immediately, the sutta is non-dhammic?

Is that what Doodoot is saying?
Hi!

As I said, I cannot speak for DD.

But if you ask me, I say that the criteria mentioned by me in my last reply is key to walk the path, and to discern right from wrong.

Kind regards!
Thanks friend!

I"m glad one person here at least clarified their believes that what they cannot verify in the immediate moment is non-Dhammic.

I appreciate your intellectual consistency in actually stating your view instead of insulting me with ad-hominums. :namaste:

For the record, I totally respect your opinion and consider your to be equally a 'Buddhist' to whatever extent you feel comfortable with the label.

I just wanted clarification and so far I'm getting quote a few ad-hominum insults and very little criteria (other than your own post where you stated that what you don't get at the moment is non-dhammic and therefore not spoken by the buddha).
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 908
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Criteria for rejecting Tipitika?

Post by Manopubbangama » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:13 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:10 am
Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:08 am
Where did I say I haven't read the abhidhamma?

I'm still waiting to hear the criteria for rejection of suttanta?

Isn't that what the thread is about? internet posters who reject suttanta material becuase it doesn't fit with their worldview and their criteria for rejecting it?
Thanks Manopubbangama. Its rain like crazy here. I was meditating but I had to look outside and clear up some water blockages and then check the rain radar. Have a good day. If you have some Abhidhamma quotes to contribute, I am also happy to contribute.

:anjali:
Anyone can cut and paste an abhidhamma quote.

What has that to do with the conversation regarding people who reject suttanta what the criteria for rejection is?

All you have contributed to far is quote a few ad-hominums and talking about rain?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: allister, dharmacorps, Germann, Google [Bot], Volo and 142 guests