What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

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SarathW
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What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:25 am

Mindfulness and the investigation are the first two factors of enlightenment. What is the difference?
http://chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en ... ightenment
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one_awakening
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by one_awakening » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:32 am

Mindfulness means to keep something in mind. Investigation involves investigating reality.
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SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:12 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:32 am
Mindfulness means to keep something in mind. The investigation involves investigating reality.
I agree.
But you do investigation when you practice Satipathana as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by chownah » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:10 am

Investigation can be done when the mind is scattered or when the mind is concentrated/focused.
Mindfulness is a concentrated/focused mind.

You can see that investigation might be done with mindfulness or without it.

It's like the difference between pies and fruit.....you can make a pie with fruit or you can make a pie without fruit.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:28 am

What I am trying to clarify is that Sati (mindfulness) already include investigation as far as I know.
why Sati and Dhammavicaya are separated in seven factors of enlightenment?
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:33 am

They are different but work together. Mindfulness belongs to sati group and investigation belongs to wisdom group. One needs to distinguish between skilful dhammas and unskilful dhammas. This function is done by investigation factor. Unskilful dhammas are the nivaranas and skilful dhammas are the bodhipakkhiya dhammas.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

paul
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by paul » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:41 am

In practice, mindfulnes is not the first factor, it is the director of the other six factors, which are divided into two groups of three, active and tranquil. In practice, investigation is actually the first factor :

"Now, on any occasion when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to develop analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, persistence as a factor for awakening, rapture as a factor for awakening.’—-SN 46.53

So mindfulness notes the mind is sluggish, and brings investigation into play. Investigation is particularly applied to determine how the arising and abandoning of the hindrances takes place, an enquiry into the nature of experience:

“He understands how the arising of the non-arisen sensuality comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen sensuality comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sensuality comes to be.”—-Satipatthana sutta, fourth foundation, MN 10.

As the practitioner investigates for example what stimulus causes a hindrance to arise, the factor of energy is raised, and when there is insight into the situation under examination, joy results. It is significant that the factors of awakening link joy with investigation, not with concentration.
In the course of investigation’s enquiry into the nature of the arising and abandoning of the hindrances in daily life, knowledge of dhamma needs to be correlated with present experience. Analayo maintains that this correlation is a property of investigation, while Thanissaro says it is a function of the memory aspect of mindfulness.
Last edited by paul on Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

SarathW
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:43 am

Can I consider Dhamma discussion in this forum as an investigation?
If not under what category comes the Dhamma discussions?
Did Buddha encourage Dhamma discussions such as in Dhamma Wheel?
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Srilankaputra
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:46 am

paul wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:41 am
As the practitioner investigates for example what stimulus causes a hindrance to arise, the factor of energy is raised, and when there is insight into the situation under examination, joy results.
Sadhu!

Hi paul,

What are the basses for enlightenment factors?
“Bhikkhus, by frequently giving attention to things that are a basis for the enlightenment factor of mindfulness, the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development…. By frequently giving attention to things that are a basis for the enlightenment factor of equanimity, the unarisen enlightenment factor of equanimity arises and the arisen enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.23/en/bodhi
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

paul
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by paul » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:49 am

This has to be mostly a matter of personal experience due to difference in temperament, however some guidelines are given:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states? There are, bhikkhus, wholesome and unwholesome states, blameable and blameless states, inferior and superior states, dark and bright states with their counterparts: frequently giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of discrimination of states."---SN 46.51

Wise attention plays an important part in the nutrition of skilful mental states.
Last edited by paul on Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:56 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:43 am
Can I consider Dhamma discussion in this forum as an investigation?
SarathW. When a mendicant develops the awakening factor of investigation of dhammas, which relies on seclusion, fading away and cessation, and ripens as letting go - and it is abundant, expansive, limitless and free of ill will - craving is given up. When craving is given up, deeds (kammaṃ) are given up. When deeds are given up, suffering is given up (AN 46.26). If Dhamma discussion in this forum was an investigation, then i think the aforementioned results would accrue. :)
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Srilankaputra
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by Srilankaputra » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:57 am

paul wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:49 am
This has to be mostly a matter of personal experience due to difference in temperament, however some guidelines are given:
If you are comfortable could you give some example from your own experience ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

ToVincent
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Re: What is the difference between mindfulness and investigation?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:29 am

PTS - The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Vicaya [fr.vi+ci: see vicinati]
- search,investigation,examination

वि vi
- meaning "in two parts", or apart - and opp. to [sam]

Cināti
[Sk. cinoti & cayati, ci,
to which also kāya , q.v.
See also caya,cita]
- to heap up, to collect, to accumulate.

1. √ चि ci
- to arrange in order , heap up , pile up , construct (a sacrificial altar) AV. VS. TS. Kāṭh. ŚBr.
- to wish to pile up ŚBr. KātyŚr.

2. √ चि ci
- to observe , perceive RV. Kāṭh.
- to fix the gaze upon , be intent upon RV. TS.
- to seek for RV.
- to seek for , investigate , search through , make inquiries MBh.

_________

काय kāya [ kāyá ]
- relating or devoted to the god Ka (Prajāpati) RV. VS. TS. ŚB
In Vedism, kaya (lit. "what belongs to Ka") is Prajāpati made body - continuous and blissful (brings happiness).

काय kāya (√ ci)
- the body KātyŚr. Mn.

___________

Note:
How interesting it is, to realize how often terms in Pali have two meanings that are frequently related; when we think of it a bit more deeply.

The above is the case, when khandhas (the heap of... khandha) and kāya seem so intertwined, to constitute the concept of a "dhamma".

There are many other examples in the suttas.
Anicca for instance, has both the meanings of "not one's own" and "impermanence".
Which, when we think of it more deeply, shows also quite a discernible relationship.

___________

Mull over it.

(note: I have already covered sati lately.)

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In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
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