7 lives after stream entry

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retrofuturist
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:37 am With the ending of three fetters they have at most seven rebirths. (AN 3.87)
Do you happen to know what the word here translated as "rebirths" is?

I suspect "rebirths" is quite a liberal interpretative translation of the actual word in question... thus I wouldn't want to pin an argument around a free-form English translation of a Pali term.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino »

Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:42 am Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb.
Talaputa Sutta
... and the significance of that to the topic is?

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by santa100 »

Actually we don't even need to place the word "rebirth" there after the word "7 times". Even without that word, the paragraph in AN 3.87 is still quite explicit in its meaning. So unless one deliberately dismisses this sutta along with SN 15.10 and many others, it's simply undeniable that the Buddha clearly meant rebirth in its real literal sense. 3 different translations all point to that same conclusion:
Bodhi wrote:With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a seven-times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more in human existence, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters and with the diminishing of greed, hatred, and delusion, he is a once-returner who, after coming back to this world only one more time, makes an end of suffering.
Thanissaro wrote:With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or] he is one going from good family to good family [i.e., rebirth in the human realm or any of the deva realms]. Having transmigrated and wandered on among two or three good families, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or] he is one with one seed. Having arisen only once more in the human realm, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who—on returning only once more to this world—will put an end to stress.
Sujato wrote:With the ending of three fetters they have at most seven rebirths. They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, they go family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, they’re a one-seeder. They will be reborn just one time in a human existence, then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by Manopubbangama »

santa100 wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:01 am Actually we don't even need to place the word "rebirth" there after the word "7 times". Even without that word, the paragraph in AN 3.87 is still quite explicit in its meaning. So unless one deliberately dismisses this sutta along with SN 15.10 and many others, it's simply undeniable that the Buddha clearly meant rebirth in its real literal sense. 3 different translations all point to that same conclusion:
Bodhi wrote:With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a seven-times-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a family-to-family attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among good families two or three times, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters, he is a one-seed attainer who, after being reborn once more in human existence, makes an end of suffering. With the utter destruction of three fetters and with the diminishing of greed, hatred, and delusion, he is a once-returner who, after coming back to this world only one more time, makes an end of suffering.
Thanissaro wrote:With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is one who has seven more times at most. Having transmigrated and wandered on among devas and human beings, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or] he is one going from good family to good family [i.e., rebirth in the human realm or any of the deva realms]. Having transmigrated and wandered on among two or three good families, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or] he is one with one seed. Having arisen only once more in the human realm, he will put an end to stress.

“[Or], with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, he is a once-returner who—on returning only once more to this world—will put an end to stress.
Sujato wrote:With the ending of three fetters they have at most seven rebirths. They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, they go family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, they’re a one-seeder. They will be reborn just one time in a human existence, then make an end of suffering. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a once-returner. They come back to this world once only, then make an end of suffering.
:goodpost:

The revisionists make no sense; they are sloppy thinkers.

How do you get reborn in a different family "in this life?"

Do we get adapted and have a pacifier put in our mouth when we are adults? :shrug:

Question for the revisionsist, what is a "water buffalo." Because its clearly not the animal....
"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by alfa »

I think some Buddhists are wary of the word 'rebirth' because it sounds a little too Hindu. Just saying.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by Manopubbangama »

alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 am I think some Buddhists are wary of the word 'rebirth' because it sounds a little too Hindu. Just saying.
I think the idea of rebirth is very different from the idea or reincarnation.

Rebirth entails anicca, dukkha and anatta, whereas the idea of reincarnation does not.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by alfa »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:00 am
alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 am I think some Buddhists are wary of the word 'rebirth' because it sounds a little too Hindu. Just saying.
I think the idea of rebirth is very different from the idea or reincarnation.

Rebirth entails anicca, dukkha and anatta, whereas the idea of reincarnation does not.
That may be, but in both cases something survives. And thus the cycle of birth and death continues. So in both religions, ending this cycle is important. So both religions agree on the salvific part, although they may have diff. views on the ontological status of self etc.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by Manopubbangama »

alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:06 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:00 am
alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:55 am I think some Buddhists are wary of the word 'rebirth' because it sounds a little too Hindu. Just saying.
I think the idea of rebirth is very different from the idea or reincarnation.

Rebirth entails anicca, dukkha and anatta, whereas the idea of reincarnation does not.
That may be, but in both cases something survives. And thus the cycle of birth and death continues. So in both religions, ending this cycle is important. So both religions agree on the salvific part, although they may have diff. views on the ontological status of self etc.
In Buddhism there is just cause and affect, not a metaphysical soul. To deny that there are effects outside of a single human life would be incorrect, according to Buddhism.

The idea of "the salvific part" would also include: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zaroastrianism, not just Hinduism.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by alfa »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:10 am
alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:06 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:00 am

I think the idea of rebirth is very different from the idea or reincarnation.

Rebirth entails anicca, dukkha and anatta, whereas the idea of reincarnation does not.
That may be, but in both cases something survives. And thus the cycle of birth and death continues. So in both religions, ending this cycle is important. So both religions agree on the salvific part, although they may have diff. views on the ontological status of self etc.
In Buddhism there is just cause and affect, not a metaphysical soul. To deny that there are effects outside of a single human life would be incorrect, according to Buddhism.

The idea of "the salvific part" would also include: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zaroastrianism, not just Hinduism.
In Abrahamic faiths, salvation would entail being with God in heaven. In Hinduism and Buddhism, you don't go to heaven after achieving salvation.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by Manopubbangama »

alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:16 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:10 am
alfa wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:06 am

That may be, but in both cases something survives. And thus the cycle of birth and death continues. So in both religions, ending this cycle is important. So both religions agree on the salvific part, although they may have diff. views on the ontological status of self etc.
In Buddhism there is just cause and affect, not a metaphysical soul. To deny that there are effects outside of a single human life would be incorrect, according to Buddhism.

The idea of "the salvific part" would also include: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zaroastrianism, not just Hinduism.
In Abrahamic faiths, salvation would entail being with God in heaven. In Hinduism and Buddhism, you don't go to heaven after achieving salvation.
I don't see much difference between union with Godhead in Hinduism and Christianity.

Either way, neither have much to do with the Buddhist concept or rebirth.

Its really the revisionists here who share more with Christianity than with Buddhism, after all isn't it the followers of Christ who are "Born again" in the blood of Christ as a spiritual rejuvenation :shrug: ?


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

The revisionists basically are pseudo-Christians, like Wiccans.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot »

rightviewftw wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:37 ami think the sutta are quite clear on the matter of rebirth itself
indeed. the suttas quite clearly say 'rebirth' is defiled (polluted) view with attachment, as follows:
And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world....

https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi
i also think the suttas are quite clear on the matter of 'rebirth' (namely, destinations from kamma) but this does not mean readers of suttas are clear
rightviewftw wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:37 amwho were possessed of wrong conduct in speech, who were possessed of wrong conduct of thought, scoffers at the ariyans, holding a wrong view, incurring deeds consequent on a wrong view — these, at the breaking up of the body (kaya) after dying (marana), have arisen in a sorrowful state, a bad bourn, the abyss, Niraya hell.
the above sutta quote sounds reasonable however the above interpretation by RightViewFTW appears to be a materialistic interpretation based on a materialistic interpretation of words. since the words 'kaya' and 'marana' in the suttas do not always refer to something 'physical', a physical or materialistic interpretation may not be the only or even correct interpretation. the following verse is found in the commentaries, which distinguishes between how the worldling puthujjana and the enlightened mind view the dhamma:
The Awakened One, best of speakers, Spoke two kinds of truths: The conventional and the ultimate. A third truth does not obtain. Therein:

The speech wherewith the world converses is true, on account of its being agreed upon by the world. The speech which describes what is ultimate is also true, characterizing dhammas as they really are.

Therefore, being skilled in common usage, False speech does not arise in the Teacher, Who is Lord of the World, When he speaks according to conventions.

Mn. i. 95
for example, i personally i have no doubts whatsoever about the existence of hell, as follows, because i can declare I have seen it:
I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
:alien:
rightviewftw wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:37 amas for stream enterer;

With the ending of three fetters they have at most seven rebirths.

They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering.

With the ending of three fetters, they go family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering.

With the ending of three fetters, they’re a one-seeder. They will be reborn just one time in a human existence, then make an end of suffering.

an 3.87
the above is just words in a book. to claim them to be true without having realised via experience as something real & true is called "ignoble speech" in the Buddha-Dhamma. in MN 38, it is said the true disciple only speaks what they have known, seen & understood for themselves; in accordance to the Dhamma refuge of akaliko . this said, i might read the sutta and reply later (after i find my next scrabble word)

:smile:
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:23 amEither way, neither have much to do with the Buddhist concept or rebirth.
So you appear to be saying Christianity has a greater doctrine of knowable experienceable truth than Buddhism? You appear to be saying the Man from Galilee is further away from Buddhism but the Judaic priest Nicodemus was closer to Buddhism? :shrug:
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

This side-bar conversation into other religions could be established in the Connections To Other Paths section if any members wish to discuss that matter further.

However, as far as this topic goes, it's time to bring it back to Theravada and the Tipitaka.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by lostitude »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:01 am
MN 2 wrote:"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
But then I wonder why the suttas themselves contain such a wealth of information about precisely this kind of questions, if such questions are a waste of time and energy.

Regarding the current debate, if I got it right, there are two main positions:
-Those who fully trust the translations and find the concept of rebirth to be constistent with th whole corpus of the suttas, regardless of whether the word rebirth is specifically stated in the pali or not,
-Those who do not find the word rebirth in the pali and understand the idea expressed in the pali texts to refer to something more figurative, while at the same time suspecting later additions in the suttas that would explain the few instances where rebirth seems to be meant in the litteral sense.

Did I get it right?
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:48 amThe revisionists make no sense; they are sloppy thinkers.
Unlikely. Also, who exactly are the "revisionists"? :shrug: :strawman: :jedi:
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:16 amDo you happen to know what the word here translated as "rebirths" is?
I doubt a Pali equivalent for "rebirth" is even found in the sutta posted. :spy: :reading:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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