7 lives after stream entry

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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bridif1
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by bridif1 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:41 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
So you are saying all the suttas translated by Thanissaro on rebirth and recollecting past lives are wrong? Doesn't seem consistent or intelllectually honest.
Not because someone said something considered as true, every word that person says should be taken automatically as true.

I can agree with some views of certain person, but that should not mean that I must agree on everything that person might say.

Greetings!

budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:43 am

bridif1 wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:41 am
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
So you are saying all the suttas translated by Thanissaro on rebirth and recollecting past lives are wrong? Doesn't seem consistent or intelllectually honest.
Not because someone said something considered as true, every word that person says should be taken automatically as true.

I can agree with some views of certain person, but that should not mean that I must agree on everything that person might say.

Greetings!
I mean these are translations we're talking about. Either his translations on rebirth are right or wrong.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:47 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
Doesn't seem consistent or intellectually honest.
Please post in a Buddhist way. All I said was Thanissaro has himself taught different views.
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
So you are saying all the suttas translated by Thanissaro on rebirth and recollecting past lives are wrong?
Not all because there is at least one sutta where he places in brackets "lit: homes". The Pali words "pubbe nivasa" do not literally mean "past lives". Any competent scholar or student knows this. Let me quote some alternate translations for you by Thanissaro and Bodhi:
With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Therefore, if you have an issue with inconsistent or intellectually dishonesty, take it up with the translators. The Pali words "pubbe nivasa" do not literally mean "past lives". The fact that you are unable to offer any scholarly view on this, apart from refer to monks, shows you have done the examination of teachings suggested in MN 95, which I recall quoting for you, which you appear to have ignored. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:52 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:47 am
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
Doesn't seem consistent or intellectually honest.
Please post in a Buddhist way. All I said was Thanissaro has himself taught different views.
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:36 am
So you are saying all the suttas translated by Thanissaro on rebirth and recollecting past lives are wrong?
Not all because there is at least one sutta where he places in brackets "lit: homes". The Pali words "pubbe nivasa" do not literally mean "past lives". Any competent scholar or student knows this. Let me quote some alternate translations for you by Thanissaro and Bodhi:
With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Therefore, if you have an issue with inconsistent or intellectually dishonesty, take it up with the translators.
:smile:
This is why I read multiple translations, perhaps you and your community could build a basic website like accesstoinsight, or even a more elaborate one like suttacentral, with your own sutta translations, so they can be compared 1 to 1.

Until then the Theravadan rebirth consensus sounds a lot more convincing to me than your atheistic ideology.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:54 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:52 am
This is why I read multiple translations..
Irrelevant. Reading a number of translations and choosing the majority does not mean the translations are correct. This has nothing to do with Buddha-Dhamma.
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:52 am
Until then the Theravadan rebirth consensus sounds a lot more convincing to me than your atheistic ideology.
You are free to believe what you wish. I posted on this topic for the benefit of Lostitude. The last thing I am interested in is converting you or changing your views. I am a Buddhist. I am not a fundamentalist monotheist.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:54 am
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:52 am
This is why I read multiple translations..
Irrelevant. Reading a number of translations and choosing the majority does not mean the translations are correct. This has nothing to do with Buddha-Dhamma.
Your minority translation is also not Buddha Dhamma, and your arguments for them are also not convincing.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:57 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:55 am
Your minority translation is also not Buddha Dhamma, and your arguments for them are also not convincing.
My arguments are not convincing to you. But they appear to be convincing to Lostitude. That is all that matters to me. :heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:57 am
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:55 am
Your minority translation is also not Buddha Dhamma, and your arguments for them are also not convincing.
My arguments are not convincing to you. But they appear to be convincing to Lostitude. That is all that matters to me. :heart:
That's fine, but you are responding to my replies not his. So your words don't match your actions.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:58 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:58 am
That's fine, but you are responding to my replies not his. So your words don't match your actions.
I am providing a convincing arguement.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:59 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:58 am
budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:58 am
That's fine, but you are responding to my replies not his. So your words don't match your actions.
Actually, it is you doing the above. Take care. :thumbsup:
Yes, my words align with my actions, I know.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:05 am

budo wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:59 am
Yes, my words align with my actions, I know.
Big claim. There is a sutta where the Buddha smashed a person in debate. When a person interjected in the discussion, the Buddha said to the interjector: "Say it, say it". So the Buddha used the other person to smash the other person in debate and make himself more convincing. This might have happened here. The more you were refuted, the better my explanations appeared. That is all that matters. Nothing else really matters. What really matters is the right teaching is given for an individual person. Since a certain person asked me to continue posting on this topic, I did, per the Dhamma rules (in AN 9.5). I posted at the request of a person. I refuted you at the request of a person who requested to hear my explanations. :thumbsup:
I now have no sweat on my body.” So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, embarrassed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say.

Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha: “A simile strikes me, Blessed One.” “Then speak as you feel inspired,” said the Buddha. “Sir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they’d pull out the crab and put it on dry land. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab’s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn’t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka’s tricks, dodges, and evasions. Now he can’t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

auto
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by auto » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:00 pm

satta=seven

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/satta
satta:[pp.of sajjati] attached or clinging to.(m.),a creature; living being.(adj.),(the number),seven.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/formulae/cutu.html#c
Sattānaṃ Cutūpapātañāṇa
— Knowledge of the rebirth of diceased beings —
Last edited by auto on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lostitude
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by lostitude » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:18 pm

Thank you DooDoot and Budo, sorry if the exchange has become a bit heated, I did request DooDoot to continue responding to opposing views in order to get a fuller picture of what his position (and those of others) entail. I wish the whole debate had been less emotional, so as to avoid any negative feelings, sorry for causing them.

auto
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by auto » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:29 pm

pitakele wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 pm
From the Ratana Sutta

Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
Idampi saṃghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṃ,
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence
this excellent treasure is in the Sangha:
by virtue of this truth may there be safety!

https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/anandajoti
is satta a seventh existence. Hmm nice i understand, the sixth is not satta.

the first six existences are not self.

Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
no matter how great they come in true knowledge they won't get to 8th existence.

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cappuccino
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:38 pm

There is no suffering over what has had a limit placed on it.
Anisansa Sutta
six rewards in realizing the fruit of stream-entry

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