7 lives after stream entry

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lostitude
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7 lives after stream entry

Post by lostitude » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm

Hello,

First of all, I apologize if this question has already been answered, but the forum's search function is not working for me.
I'm curious about the seven lives that in theory follow the life in which someone attains stream-entry.
When someone attains stream-entry, then dies, then is reborn, where are they in terms of buddhist practice? Do they start everything from scratch to catch up on the stream-entry level they died on? Or are they just born with all the spiritual qualities they had acquired in the previous lives?
In other words I wonder how the stream-entry from a previous like manifests in the next lives. Has there ever been any record of, say, a 5-year-old child displaying the qualities of a stream-enterer?

Thanks.

santa100
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by santa100 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:19 pm

It's what they called habit energy or latent tendency, the potential energy that was built up, stored, and transferrable from life to life. It works kinda like the cases of math or music prodigies, whose potential energy in their areas of specialty are so vast that it only takes minimal effort to achieve maximal results. Similarly, there're 5 year-olds who seem to naturaly possess wholesome attributes of loving kindness, compassion, and selflessness while their peers simply do things in the regular selfish way. These kids, just like their math or music prodigies counterparts would naturally pick up and cultivate the Dhamma with much less effort than regular worldlings. Talking about potential, the Buddha was a prime example. He attained the 1st jhana when He was still a kid. As a young adult, He then attained the same or even surpassed the levels of samadhi of His 2 meditation teachers in a short amount of time!

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:15 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm
I'm curious about the seven lives that in theory...
The relevant sutta actually does not literally refer to "seven more lives". The word "lives" is not found in the relevant suttas. The relevant suttas refer to "seven times at most/maximum". However, it is the traditional interpretation of these teachings to say there are seven more lives. Personally, I think the suttas are referring to "seven more fetters to break" rather than seven more "lives". At least SN 13.1 refers to the breaking of three of ten fetters. Thus, it seems logical to me, SN 13.1 is saying "a maximum of seven more fetters to break". Note: I removed the term "lives" from the translation below, since it is not found in the Pali:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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cappuccino
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:18 pm

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."
Nakhasikha Sutta

form
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by form » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:37 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:15 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:58 pm
I'm curious about the seven lives that in theory...
The relevant sutta actually does not literally refer to "seven more lives". The word "lives" is not found in the relevant suttas. The relevant suttas refer to "seven times at most/maximum". However, it is the traditional interpretation of these teachings to say there are seven more lives. Personally, I think the suttas are referring to "seven more fetters to break" rather than seven more "lives". At least SN 13.1 refers to the breaking of three of ten fetters. Thus, it seems logical to me, SN 13.1 is saying "a maximum of seven more fetters to break". Note: I removed the term "lives" from the translation below, since it is not found in the Pali:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, "What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?"

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
That made sense.

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cappuccino
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:39 pm

he changed the text

from the link, in his example

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pitakele
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by pitakele » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 pm

From the Ratana Sutta

Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
Idampi saṃghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṃ,
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence
this excellent treasure is in the Sangha:
by virtue of this truth may there be safety!

https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/anandajoti
now here = nowhere

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:47 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:39 pm
he changed the text

from the link, in his example
"lives" is not in the Pali.
Compared to the mass of suffering in the past that’s over and done with, it’s not nearly a hundredth, a thousandth, or a hundred thousandth part, since there are at most seven more lives.

Neva satimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na sahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti na satasahassimaṃ kalaṃ upeti purimaṃ dukkhakkhandhaṃ parikkhīṇaṃ pariyādiṇṇaṃ upanidhāya yadidaṃ sattakkhattuṃparamatā.

https://suttacentral.net/sn13.1/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:47 pm
"lives" is not in the Pali
Context:
Rebirth is the teaching, the end of birth is the teaching.

santa100
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by santa100 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:03 pm

DooDoot wrote:The relevant sutta actually does not literally refer to "seven more lives". The word "lives" is not found in the relevant suttas. The relevant suttas refer to "seven times at most/maximum". However, it is the traditional interpretation of these teachings to say there are seven more lives. Personally, I think the suttas are referring to "seven more fetters to break" rather than seven more "lives".
Well, the obvious problem with that new interpretation is that the 2 highlighted phrases would contradict each other: while it makes perfect sense to say a Stream enterer can go thru "at most 7 more lives" before complete enlightenment, it doesn't make any sense to say s/he can break "at most 7 more fetters" before complete enlightenment. All 7 fetters have to be completely broken and it's not an option to simply skip 1 or 2. Hence if the new interpretation was true, the "at most seven" part would also have to be dropped!

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:03 pm

pitakele wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 pm
From the Ratana Sutta

Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṃ pamattā,
Na te bhavaṃ aṭṭhamam ādiyanti;
Idampi saṃghe ratanaṁ paṇītaṃ,
Etena saccena suvatthi hotu.

Those who clearly distinguish the noble truths,
which have been well preached by the one with great wisdom,
no matter how great they become in heedlessness
still they do not take up an eighth existence
this excellent treasure is in the Sangha:
by virtue of this truth may there be safety!

https://suttacentral.net/kp6/en/anandajoti
Thanks for that but "bhavaṃ" does not mean "lives".
santa100 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:03 pm
Well, the obvious problem with that new interpretation is that the 2 highlighted phrases would contradict each other: while it makes perfect sense to say a Stream enterer can go thru "at most 7 more lives" before complete enlightenment, it doesn't make any sense to say s/he can break "at most 7 more fetters" before complete enlightenment. All 7 fetters have to be completely broken and it's not an option to simply skip 1 or 2. Hence if the new interpretation was true, the "at most seven" part would also have to be dropped!
Sounds like quibbling to me. The sutta says "seven times maximum", which can mean: "not more than seven"; the same as: "still they do not take up an eighth existence".

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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budo
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by budo » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:03 pm

Wrong view:
They have wrong view. Their perspective is distorted: ‘There’s no meaning in giving, sacrifice, or offerings. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There’s no afterlife. There’s no obligation to mother and father. No beings are reborn spontaneously. And there’s no ascetic or brahmin who is well attained and practiced, and who describes the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.

These are the three kinds of corruption and failure of mental action.
-AN 10.217

Anyone who denies rebirth and afterlife has wrong view. Some may say the translations are wrong, but when three respected monks in the world (Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Sujato) use rebirth and afterlife, then odds are it's the person making the accusation that is wrong.

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DooDoot
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:09 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:03 pm
Wrong view:
They have wrong view. Their perspective is distorted: ‘There’s no meaning in giving, sacrifice, or offerings. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There’s no afterlife. There’s no obligation to mother and father. No beings are reborn spontaneously. And there’s no ascetic or brahmin who is well attained and practiced, and who describes the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.

These are the three kinds of corruption and failure of mental action.
-AN 10.217

Anyone who denies rebirth and afterlife has wrong view. Some may say the translations are wrong, but when three respected monks in the world (Thanissaro, Bodhi, and Sujato) use rebirth and afterlife, then odds are it's the person making the accusation that is wrong.
Hi Budo

I think the above post is off-topic. Also, the Pali does not include the word "afterlife" or "reborn" or "next world". Possibly you can start a new topic to discuss this.

Regards :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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cappuccino
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:10 pm

faith is important, otherwise you can't accept the teaching

skeptics always have trouble

particularly about right view (karma & rebirth)

santa100
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Re: 7 lives after stream entry

Post by santa100 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:13 pm

DooDoot wrote:Sounds like quibbling to me. The sutta says "seven times maximum", which can mean: "not more than seven"; the same as: "still they do not take up an eighth existence".
That's exactly the problem with bending and twisting sutta meaning. Because once you did it, you will have to keep bending and twisting more and more in order for your original twisting to make sense. The sutta message can't be any more clear: "at most 7 lives" simply mean it could be 7, or 6, or 5, etc. Your new interpretation makes it mandatory to be exactly 7, which doesn't make any sense at all.

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