On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

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rolling_boulder
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On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by rolling_boulder »

Getting to a hot topic here but it's a burning question for me.

Do you think the capitalist mode of production violates the precept against stealing? (Does the capitalist steal the value that their workers produce?)

To me it seems like it depends on what the definition of stealing is. Stealing could be physically grabbing someone else's property and taking it for oneself, but to me there are other forms of stealing too. For example, I could coerce you by force into giving me something of yours and take it for myself. Even if you "gave" me the item, and strictly speaking I didn't physically steal it from you, it is still considered stealing if I had a gun to your head at the time.

Through a certain lens we might see the capitalist mode of production as theft in this secondary coercive manner, on a group level.

As an individual not born to riches in this world, you are subject to the need to make yourself a living. In the current economic condition, there is no means of production available to you which is not privately laid claim to. You can't even go farm some undeveloped land somewhere as all property is now owned.

So you are forced into working for someone else, who does have conventional ownership of those means of production (land, machines, etc) and profits from your situation by giving you what is called a "job" where you work to produce value but only recieve some of the value you produce.

So if I hire you at $10 an hour, it is because I am making more than that from you, say $15, and taking the extra $5 for myself.

You might say you have the "free choice" not to work for me. But the reality is that this mode of production is inescapable- you can't not work for me, or someone like me, because it is work or starve. So it is similar to the person who has a "free choice" not to give their wallet to a robber with a gun- it is give or get shot.

In this narrative, should we consider it theft?

Interested in people's opinions on this.
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DooDoot
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by DooDoot »

rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amDo you think the capitalist mode of production violates the precept against stealing? (Does the capitalist steal the value that their workers produce?)
No because the capitalist provides the capital (machinery & land) and the employee provides the labour. Also, the capitalist must gain a return on their capital (which is subject to impermanence/obsolescence/depreciation). Thus it is not the labour doing all of the work.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amTo me it seems like it depends on what the definition of stealing is.
The precept refers to stealing as taking what is not freely given.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amFor example, I could coerce you by force into giving me something of yours and take it for myself.
Sure. A surplus pool of labour forces people to offer their labour for a lower wage.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amThrough a certain lens we might see the capitalist mode of production as theft in this secondary coercive manner, on a group level.
It can be, depending on the supply & demand for labour.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amAs an individual not born to riches in this world, you are subject to the need to make yourself a living. In the current economic condition, there is no means of production available to you which is not privately laid claim to. You can't even go farm some undeveloped land somewhere as all property is now owned.
Sort of. For most people today, due to their financial means & (lack of) individual initiative, their options are limited.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amSo you are forced into working for someone else, who does have conventional ownership of those means of production (land, machines, etc) and profits from your situation by giving you what is called a "job" where you work to produce value but only recieve some of the value you produce.
Yes, it appears so. It appears Capitalism arose from Feudalism; where Feudalism was the military appropriation of land by Gangster Thugs (later called "Nobles" or "Lords").
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amSo if I hire you at $10 an hour, it is because I am making more than that from you, say $15, and taking the extra $5 for myself.
But, as I said, the capitalist is providing the capital. Under capitalism, while distribution of production may not be always humane, humanity has been able to feed itself better. Today, there are 7 billion people on earth.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amYou might say you have the "free choice" not to work for me. But the reality is that this mode of production is inescapable- you can't not work for me, or someone like me, because it is work or starve. So it is similar to the person who has a "free choice" not to give their wallet to a robber with a gun- it is give or get shot.
Sure.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 amIn this narrative, should we consider it theft? Interested in people's opinions on this.
The Buddha appeared to highlight paying workers sufficiently so they could live a reasonable life. My impression is the Buddha was not concerned about Capitalism vs Communism. The Buddha did teach a lot about individual initiative (eg AN 4.62) thus did not appear to support Communism. However, the Buddha appeared very clear about the humane treatment of workers, per below:
In five ways should a master minister to his servants and employees as the Nadir:

(i) by assigning them work according to their ability,
(ii) by supplying them with food and with wages,
(iii) by tending them in sickness,
(iv) by sharing with them any delicacies [special profits],
(v) by granting them leave at times.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
In other words, I think this issue is not related to the five precepts (apart from the appropriation of land by Gangster Thugs starting thousands of years ago). Today, the means of production in the world is very efficient therefore the question seems to be about ensuring it is distributed humanely (which currently is probably getting worse rather than improving).
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by DNS »

rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 am So if I hire you at $10 an hour, it is because I am making more than that from you, say $15, and taking the extra $5 for myself.
Not necessarily, some businesses don't make a profit or if they do, it might be very little. It would be the same in a socialist system as the government owned production would need to pay you an amount where the production can stay operating. In a communist system it would even be worse. For example, in the kibbutzes (farm communes) of Israel, the workers basically only got paid room and board, free education and health care. Their salaries were so small, they only paid for the most basic "luxuries" of some candies or other items at the commune store. I believe most of those communes are gone as the residents left for the cities and a more capitalist system.

Let's say someone has an air conditioning company. He might pay his techs $25 per hour. The customers will pay hundreds, sometimes thousands for the repairs, but the business owner has numerous expenses with vehicles, maintaining a shop, all of the parts and inventory needed to fix a/c units, office, rents, business licenses, etc. Sure, if the tech left and started his own a/c business, he might make much more than the $25 per hour, but some forego that, instead preferring the guaranteed paycheck of being the employee rather than the employer and the extra hassles and stress that comes with being the business owner.
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by SarathW »

Hi RB
I see your point but it is not stealing but they do not have the Brhama Vihara mainly the compassion. (metta, karuna, mudita and upekka)
Say there are only two people in the world and one small land to cultivate.
They gambled and one person lost his share and he became a slave to the other.
The man who won does not have any compassion and treat him loser as a slave.
If the man who won the bet had compassion he will still look after the loser properly or perhaps equally.
We are living in a world with ignorant and no compassionate people (ie people with attachment, aversion and ignorance).
It does not matter whether it is socialist or capitalist the situation will never change.
The only solution is to make all people in the world practicing Buddhistst which is not practical.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:51 am In this narrative, should we consider it theft?
No. As outlined in sutta instruction to householders, it is encumbent only on employers only to pay a fair wage and to provide fair working conditions. To offer Right Livelihood compatible employment that another is willing to accept, is actually a meritorious action.

However, if you wish to extend beyond the remit of the Dhamma and the suttas, and venture into "Engaged Buddhism" etc., then I'm sure the folk at Dharma Wheel Engaged will be willing to share their perspectives with you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by Manopubbangama »

I believe the idea that capitalism is theft can be traced back to the French anarchist Proudhon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft!
budo
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by budo »

If there is an agreement or consent between two people it's not stealing.

If I say I'll let you use my cake mixer machine, flour and all the other ingredients, and in return you'll make me 10 cakes, and I will let you have 2 cakes, it's not any of your business what I do with the remaining 8 cakes. Whether I eat them, give them away, or sell them at a market, has nothing to do with you, and is not any of your business, and is definitely not stealing.

Same goes for prostitution, if a woman sells her body, she's not being raped. It's an agreement between two consenting adults. Whether she is being coerced is another story, and that's where the government should come in, but if there is no coercion then the government is being overly authoritarian between two people by deeming it illegal.
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by seeker242 »

In this narrative, should we consider it theft?
No, the precepts are not about a societies economic structure. They are about your own personal everyday choices in your own life.
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Re: On the Precepts and the capitalist appropriation of surplus labor value.

Post by dharmacorps »

There are numerous suttas where the Buddha advises lay people about right livelihood and describes the process of an employer getting work, and then hires employees to help him complete the work and describes the responsibilities of the employer and employee. There is nothing in conflict I can see with the precepts and capitalism, in fact I would say there is much support for the concept of merchant/capitalism in the suttas. If capitalism seems unfair or unjust to you, I would recommend reading this article. https://www.lionsroar.com/wisdom-over-justice/
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