Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I have created this topic to explore whether and to what extent the Theravāda tradition, as measured by either the Tipitaka, the commentarial tradition, and/or by lived cultural experience, avoids the temptation to intervene, interfere and impose itself upon the affairs of others.

I think here for starters about Mahayana Buddhism's "Bodhisattva Vow", whereby those who adopt this vow have effectively vowed to interfere in the affairs of all sentient beings, whether they assent to this interference or not, until all sentient beings have been liberated through Mahayana's understanding of enlightenment. Personally, I find such grandiose activity to be an evangelical, intrusive, presumptuous pomposity and I hereby politely request that anyone who was taken such a vow, please liberate me from the remit of it, as I would like to opt out of being the target of such controlling, authoritarian, elitist interference.

But what of Theravada Buddhism and what of the Buddha's teachings themselves? Is our religion guilty of the same hectoring and proselytization, or did the Buddha successfully tread a "middle way" between offering what he considered valuable, and forcing it upon others against their will?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by SarathW »

Hi Retro
Didn't Buddha interfere with Angulimala?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:55 am Didn't Buddha interfere with Angulimala?
Could you elaborate further, and explain in what way he may have done so?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by SarathW »

Another occasion is Buddha try to stop the massacre of Sakyan unsuccessfully.
I think he tried to save people if it was in his disposal.
For instance he could not save Devadatta.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

On interfering with others.... this has been an aspiration for me, during my time at monasteries particularly. When I apply it, I always feel a sense of relief and pleasant detachment, which really helps with meditation (and living with annoying people):

Dhammapada verse 50
Let none find fault with others;
let none see the omissions and commissions of others.
But let one see one’s own acts,
done and undone.
Another translation of #50:
One should not consider the faults of others,
nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds.
One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds.
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote:until all sentient beings have been liberated through Mahayana's understanding of enlightenment.
Even within Mahayana circles, there're different interpretations of what "all sentient beings" mean. For the obvious issue with a literal interpretation of "sentient beings" would be that the Buddha himself didn't wait for all sentient beings to be delivered and postponed His PariNibbana indefinitely. Therefore, some Mahayana masters suggested a metaphorical interpretation to solve the paradox. With this approach, "all sentient beings" are metaphors for all actively functioning defilements constantly manifesting themselves thru the 3 gateways of mind, body, and speech. Hence it'd make sense that enlightenment could only be attained once all these "sentient beings" have been "liberated". Going with this metaphorical approach, all issues would be resolved and there's no contradiction with the Theravada approach.
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by Volo »

Dhp:

166. Attadatthaṃ paratthena,
bahunāpi na hāpaye;
Attadatthamabhiññāya,
sadatthapasuto siyā.

166. Let one not neglect one’s own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one’s own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.

***
158. Attānameva paṭhamaṃ,
patirūpe nivesaye;
Athaññamanusāseyya,
na kilisseyya paṇḍito.

158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached.
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:05 am Another occasion is Buddha try to stop the massacre of Sakyan unsuccessfully.
I think he tried to save people if it was in his disposal.
For instance he could not save Devadatta.
I think you may be missing part of the subtlety of this topic.

It's not simply about a willingness to help, but about what happens if someone does not want or see value in your so-called "help"?

What if, due to different world-views, philosophies, ideologies, preferences, life circumstances etc. that which you believe is "helpful", is not something that is actually considered helpful, desirable or beneficial to someone else who does not share your values?

What then? Do we respect their autonomy and leave them be, or do we refuse to take "no" for an answer?

What would the Buddha do?

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by SarathW »

I agree with you point Retro.
Isn't Kalyanamitta should point out the draw backs to his friend?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by BKh »

I think you may be missing part of the subtlety of this topic.
I think the question may be posed in such a way that it is hard to have a discussion about the topic. This notion of "elites" that I think you are referring to has more to do with opinions in a modern worldview. Personally I don't believe these "elites" even exist today, let alone would be relevant to a discussion about the Buddha's time. But clearly we have different opinions on the matter.
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:42 am Isn't Kalyanamitta should point out the draw backs to his friend?
True, but let's take a real-life example where a rather presumptuous kalayana-mitta once took it upon himself to forcefully voice his opinion about what I should and should not do in relation to a certain matter. However, I disagreed with the values, logic and presumptions that underpinned his perpsective, and thus, I disagreed with the recommendation he had made.

Once it's realised that the genuine "help" (in the eye of the giver) is not regarded as genuinely "helpful" (in the eye of the receiver)... what then?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by DNS »

The Buddha wanted his new religion to be spread far and wide:

Wander forth, O bhikkhus, for the welfare of the multitude, for the happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and humans. Let not two go the same way. Teach, O bhikkhus, the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing.” Samyutta Nikaya 4.453

But how forceful was that, we don't know for sure, but we could infer some possibilities from the Suttas.

Upali lived during the time of Buddha and was the follower of another religion and went to the Buddha in order to argue with him and try to convert him. But after talking to the Buddha, he was so impressed that he decided to become a follower of the Buddha. But the Buddha said:

“Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself.

Now I am even more pleased and satisfied when the Buddha says to me: 'Make a proper investigation first.' For if members of another religion had secured me as a disciple they would have paraded a banner all around the town saying: 'Upali has joined our religion.' But the Buddha says to me: Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself”." (Majjhima Nikaya 2.379)

From the above, we could infer it was not forceful and was taught to those who were ready for it.
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings bhante,
BKh wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:47 am This notion of "elites" that I think you are referring to has more to do with opinions in a modern worldview. Personally I don't believe these "elites" even exist today, let alone would be relevant to a discussion about the Buddha's time. But clearly we have different opinions on the matter.
I disagree. The attitude is as old as time, and is reflected in the suttas by phrasings such as "only this is true; everything else is false and worthless."

When someone latches onto their views with such unfounded, arrogant confidence, and uses this confidence as rationalisation for inflicting their views upon others, with the attempt to convert them to their way of thinking, this is known as proselytization . Such religious zealotry is as old as religion itself.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,
DNS wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:59 am Upali lived during the time of Buddha and was the follower of another religion and went to the Buddha in order to argue with him and try to convert him. But after talking to the Buddha, he was so impressed that he decided to become a follower of the Buddha. But the Buddha said:

“Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself.

Now I am even more pleased and satisfied when the Buddha says to me: 'Make a proper investigation first.' For if members of another religion had secured me as a disciple they would have paraded a banner all around the town saying: 'Upali has joined our religion.' But the Buddha says to me: Make a proper investigation first. Proper investigation is good for a well-known person like yourself”." (Majjhima Nikaya 2.379)

From the above, we could infer it was not forceful and was taught to those who were ready for it.
Agreed - it's an inspiring passage.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by seeker242 »

Every teaching of dhamma, regardless of who it's from, can be characterized as "interfering in the affairs of sentient beings". That's the whole point of it to begin with.
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