Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by mikenz66 »

This is an interesting discussion, which I think highlights the different world views that have been developed in the various Buddhist traditions.
budo wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:40 pmSo it's absolutely arrogant for Mahayanists to assume they can enlighten people by avoiding enlightenment themselves ...
I think that this is a misunderstanding. The (first) vow is generally along the lines of: "Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to liberate them all". I've not come across Mahayana practitioners who are "holding back" (though they may well exist...).

I think that the problem we have is that the way the question is posed, and has largely been discussed in this thread, is based on different world views from the world view expressed by the Bhodhisattva vows. The question (and budo's post) emphasises the separateness of beings.

Mahayana practitioners will, on the other hand, emphasise the interconnection of beings, and that the not-self characteristic means that the separateness is an illusion.

Interconnectedness is not strongly emphasised in the Pali Suttas, but of course not-self, and the illusory nature of "beings" is:
Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?

This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.

“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’

“It’s only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn5.10/en/bodhi#sc6
And there are hints in suttas such as this:
“What, bhikkhu, is the earth element? The earth element may be either internal or external. What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to, that is, head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified, and clung-to: this is called the internal earth element. Now both the internal earth element and the external earth element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the earth element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the earth element.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi#sc21
In cartoon form we could characterise two world-view extremes. [I'm trying to present these very simply, so please don't focus on the shortcomings of such a simplistic division!]
  • Beings are completely separate and the teachings are about those beings individually liberating themselves by realising their not-self nature.
  • Beings are not separate, the individuality is an illusion. Realising this interconnectedness is the realisation of not-self.
A common simile regarding the second word-view is that one's left arm has no hesitation in acting to protect one's right arm. It's just the obvious thing to do.

It's not my intention to defend the logic of either of these cartoon views, but I don't think that it's helpful to use one world view to criticise the practices that emerge from another world view. Mahayana practitioners criticising Theravada for being "selfish", or Theravada practitioners criticising Mahayana for "interfering" seem to be assuming these different world views and talking past each other. Better, in my opinion, to understand the world views and accept or reject at that level.

I would, however, like to make a final comment on this idea of "interference". There seems to be an assumption that helping other beings means "preaching" to them. That seems to me to be a gross oversimplification, and it would seem odd to criticise any Buddhist practitioners for developing generosity, kindness, and compassion, doing what they can to help others. Those attributes are certainly supported by the early texts...

:heart:
Mike
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by budo »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:44 pm This is an interesting discussion, which I think highlights the different world views that have been developed in the various Buddhist traditions.
...

I would, however, like to make a final comment on this idea of "interference". There seems to be an assumption that helping other beings means "preaching" to them. That seems to me to be a gross oversimplification, and it would seem odd to criticise any Buddhist practitioners for developing generosity, kindness, and compassion, doing what they can to help others. Those attributes are certainly supported by the early texts...

:heart:
Mike
Interesting post, I have a question though:

What are the ways in the suttas that initiates the transmission of dhamma?

1) The Buddha surveys the landscape with his powers for who is capable of learning the dhamma, and learns his teachers have died and so goes to the next group of people who can learn the dhamma, being the ascetics which Kondanna and Assaji are part of.

2) Lay men and ascetics seeking out the Buddha, like Bahiya (being initiated by others)

3) The Buddha / monks giving a teaching after receiving alms (reciprocating after being initiated by others)

4) The Buddha / monks summoned by a king or prince (being initiated by others)

Are there more? From my understanding, there is only one scenario in which the Buddha reaches out to others, and that's 1) surveying the landscape with his powers.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Does Theravāda avoid elitist interference in the affairs of others?

Post by mikenz66 »

budo wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:23 pm ...
Are there more? From my understanding, there is only one scenario in which the Buddha reaches out to others, and that's 1) surveying the landscape with his powers.
Perhaps you are still focusing on preaching. I don't have the background to explain the Mahayana world view in detail, but the Mahayana practitioners I know don't see the development of compassion and helping others in terms of "preaching". It's the cultivation of attitude and right speech, action and livelihood.

Theravada practitioners also value generosity, right speech, action and livelihood are key parts of the Path. They don't have to involve "preaching"...

:heart:
Mike
Post Reply