Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:24 amMen make-up 99% of monastics....
I did give my opinion the monastic sphere is completely different to the household sphere. I think the small amount of women you refer to in the monastic sphere is a merit based thing. Respect, renown & liberation must be earned. For example, a bhikkhuni such as Tenzin Palmo is highly respected. 50 years ago and today, Germaine Greer is still unable to answer the same question put to her: "What is women's liberation"? Men started the monastic order and some women wanted to tag along. They did not start their own order or religion. Even today, lay people generally want to listen to monks rather than nuns. When I lived in the monastery, I got the impression many female residents had emotionally dependent ('tantric') relationships with monks. I have seen two Western nuns behave like two wives towards a Western monk, emotionally berating him for being "selfish". The women were often "carried along". I think men make the rules, particularly to create the monastic environment of solitude & detachment. Imagine if the monastic environment became "touchy feely", with Mahayana hugs?
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

So it seems that in Buddhism: the Nikaya is patriarchal, society is patriarchal, the universe is patriarchal, and the family is patriarchal.

Nikaya = P
Universe = P
Household = P
Society = P

The Nikaya is always run by men, the Buddha is always a man in every age, in the household women are "handed" privileges the way dad gives the car keys to junior in high school and society is run by men.

In this conversation, Suttas that appear to be "too patriarchal" are tossed out as "inaccurate teachings of the Buddha for saying naughty things." :quote:

:thinking:

It seems thats where we are at right now, so far.... :alien:

Thats um...thats quite a bit of patriarchy. :shrug:

All of this and we haven't even gotten to the Jataka tales yet! :reading:
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:43 am society is patriarchal
Imo, the above is not related to Buddhism but just a personal observation. My personal observation on this matter is society is female, just as the world is female, just as 'god' is female. I think my view is the view of a renunciate where as the above view is the machismo view of a man beguiled by the world.

Please do not report this post for a TOU. I am simply paraphrasing Buddhism.

In Thailand, the women are honest enough to boast about a Thai saying, which is: "Man and woman is like a horse. The woman is the strong back legs that push and the man is the front legs that deludedly believes he is leading".

While possibly not appropriate for a politically correct Western machismo forum for laypeople, I think my view here is what differentiates the Noble View from the worldly view. There are so many suttas about this, where the Buddha responds to men boasting about their worldly possessions.
Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search?

"And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.

MN 26
In my observation, society is men & women working for the reproductive urges of women. For me, society is definitely 'female'.
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:56 am I think my view here is what differentiates the Noble View from the worldly view.
Yes, I think you have made that pretty clear to everyone.

Its just this thing about the rest of us not seeing it....

Its hard to say.

I think the Buddha allows us a charter of free inquiry and if you are so Noble, and we are so foolish, I would hope you could articulate yourself in a way that doesn't appear to be contradictory.

At least out of compassion for us unenlightened, sentient mortals.
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:59 amIts just this thing about the rest of us not seeing it....
In his 1st sermon, the Buddha taught a Path for those that left the household life.
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:59 amI think the Buddha allows us a charter of free inquiry and if you are so Noble, and we are so foolish, I would hope you could articulate yourself in a way that doesn't appear to be contradictory.
I have articulated myself similar to the suttas. I think the problem with modern sutta study is the suttas were probably never really compiled for worldly lay people to read them.
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:59 amAt least out of compassion for us unenlightened, sentient mortals.
The Dhammapada says:
62. The fool worries, thinking, "I have sons, I have wealth." Indeed, when he himself is not his own, whence are sons, whence is wealth?

63. A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
Dealing with verses such as the above is a problem for worldlings seeking to change Buddhism into their own image. This is the problem we have on Dhamma forums because teachings, such as those above, may not be appropriate for the audience. Yet these teachings are Buddhism.

Essentially, it appears the Buddha taught both lay women & lay men should live according to the Dhamma; given they live together in a mutually dependent partnerships that require mutual virtuous conduct to be maintained. Obviously, the whole of society is not made up of practising Buddhists therefore it seem obvious what the world is is unrelated to Buddhism. If a husband does not follow the precepts but a wife does, AN 4.53 says clearly the wife is a goddess and the husband is a ghost. It is obvious Buddhism is not patriarchal in respect to Buddhist lay practitioners. But for worldlings who machismoly treat a wife as a possession or acquistion, yes, marriage may be patriarchal.

When I once had a 'relationship' with a young natural woman, if I followed her wishes rather than my own machismo impulses, the relationship would have be closer to the Dhamma. The Buddha taught women desire monogamy. Personally, in my life, I have observed natural women and messed up women. The natural women have moral aspirations. I have rarely seen a natural woman that needs Dhamma instruction about relationship. Its the men that most often need help in maintaining relationships. Imo, the view that a man must morally lead a natural woman is a serious delusion. I am sincere about this. Natural women are designed & equipped by nature for nest building. Its men that generally need Dhamma help.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:16 am
Dealing with verses such as the above is a problem for worldlings seeking to change Buddhism into their own image. This is the problem we have on Dhamma forums because teachings, such as those above, may not be appropriate for the audience. Yet these teachings are Buddhism.

I'm sorry you feel that way. :alien:

And of course AN 4.53 doesn't say "a woman is goddess a man is a ghost." :alien:

Its actually just a biiiiiiit more nuanced than that: https://suttacentral.net/an4.53/en/sujato :o

Do you feel that perhaps I am incapable of properly understanding dhamma, whereas you are the correct elucitador?
sentinel
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by sentinel »

It seems so that Buddhism is very patriarchal , as there were concerned over Reliability of women.
The Buddha addressed on distrust of women being a witness in the monks’ monastic code . Matter regarding trust , confidence and reliability of women to offer testimony as witnesses to possible sexual transgressions by monks can be found in two (aniyata) rules of the Monks’ Patimokkha that explicitly require strict consideration by any sangha of the testimony of trusted women .
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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James Tan wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:51 pm It seems so Buddhism is very patriarchal , as there were concerned over Reliability of women.
The Buddha addressed on distrust of women being a witness in the monks’ monastic code . Trust of women to offer testimony as witnesses to possible sexual transgressions by monks can be found in two (aniyata) rules of the Monks’ Patimokkha that explicitly require strict consideration by any sangha of the testimony of trusted women.
Agreed, James. Although apparently all of us are "fools" for seeing this.

One thing is differentiating "patriarchal" from overt mysogeny.

In example, in my humble opinion: having more rules for female monastics is "patriarchal" as it is fatherly love for females to keep them safe, which is what patriarchy is supposed to do and which is why patriarchal countries such as Poland have a much, much, much lower rate of rape than matriarchal countries such as Sweden and Britain.

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Last edited by Manopubbangama on Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:24 am Let's keep this on topic to Buddhism only please, not Christianity.

__________________

Maybe in the past Buddhism was patriarchal or matriarchal or neither...

But it cannot be denied that Buddhism today is profoundly patriarchal.
Men control almost every aspect of Buddhism today in every tradition across the planet....with the exception perhaps of the American secular meditation movement such as Spirit Rock, and Barre.

Men make-up 99% of monastics. (Picking that number out of the air, but it seems reasonable)
Men head every Buddhist authority in the world. For example the Thai supreme sangha, and the equivalents in Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Zen, Chinese Chan, and on and on.
If you look for Buddhist talks on YouTube there are endless talks by monks and male teachers, and very few by females.
It's all men men men.
There are a few women but their scarcity proves the rule.

I don't mind that because I'm a man, so it suits me just fine, but all I'm saying is it's very patriarchal NOW.
It depends what is meant by "Buddhism". If we mean current institutions and practices, then the under-representation of women and their lack of power means that Buddhism can indeed be called patriarchal. For someone who is not particularly involved with or bothered by institutions, however - someone who just wants to end their suffering, and thinks that the Buddha's teachings are the best way to achieve that - then such considerations are little more than interesting sociology. For them, a more pertinent question would be: "Are the Buddha's teachings patriarchal, in that they advocate the subordination of women, or would necessarily lead to such subordination if followed?"
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by sentinel »

Perhaps , patriarchal and discrimination is not the same . Patriarchal can be something beneficial whereas discrimination is unjust or prejudicial and is of ill will which is unwholesome .
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

James Tan wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:17 pm Perhaps , patriarchal and discrimination is not the same . Patriarchal can be something beneficial whereas discrimination is unjust or prejudicial and is of ill will which is unwholesome .
best.post.of.the.day. :console:

Men are not bad. This is a feminist myth that male-feminists love to flagellate themselves with using 50 shades of male-chastity devices.

Men are protectors and providers, thinkers and builders.

The Buddha was a man; and a "manly man" at that (ksatriya). :guns: :jedi:

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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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James Tan wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:17 pm Perhaps , patriarchal and discrimination is not the same . Patriarchal can be something beneficial whereas discrimination is unjust or prejudicial and is of ill will which is unwholesome .
I think this is the point that has to be made, but likely is a nuanced point which would not be received well in today's climate in the west.
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:37 pm
James Tan wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:17 pm Perhaps , patriarchal and discrimination is not the same . Patriarchal can be something beneficial whereas discrimination is unjust or prejudicial and is of ill will which is unwholesome .
I think this is the point that has to be made, but likely is a nuanced point which would not be received well in today's climate in the west.
Of course, you are right.

"Westerners" are not mature enough for Buddhism yet.

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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

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Moderator note:

This thread is about whether Buddhism is patriarchal. That might mean different things to different people, but it is not an excuse to mount hobby-horses and make general and unpleasant statements about societies, countries, cultures, or types of people. There are plenty of places where that sort of thing can be posted on-line, but this isn't one of them. This is a site for discussing Theravada.

Any more posts which contain such material will be removed.
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Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by dharmacorps »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:40 pm
"Westerners" are not mature enough for Buddhism yet.
I don't agree with this generalization, although clearly it is true in some instances.
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