Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:57 pmIn example, in my humble opinion: having more rules for female monastics is "patriarchal" as it is fatherly love for females to keep them safe, which is what patriarchy is supposed to do...
Again, this appears to be a superficial unsubstantiated idea. Both Vinaya have many rules, for various purposes. Unless one is an expert in Vinaya & history, there appears little to indicate exactly how bhikkunis were required to live in the Buddha's time. Today in the West, as well as in Asia, there are bhikkhuni monasteries without any men or bhikkhus there to protect the bhikkhunis.

In addition, the general practise of non-harming in Buddhism is not anything patriarchal because the suttas exhort equal ethics upon both men & women. The suttas say, for example, if a wife is unethical, the family expel her from the family home:
If a female has the powers of attractiveness, wealth, and relatives, but not that of ethical behavior, the family will send her away, they won’t accommodate her.

https://suttacentral.net/sn37.30/en/sujato
Anyway, lets continue with our sutta research to debunk the idea that Judeo-Xtian 'Patriarchy' applies to Buddhism:
Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html
He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

"In these five ways do children minister to their parents as the East and the parents show their compassion to their children. Thus is the East covered by them and made safe and secure.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
This was said by the Lord...

Living with Brahma are those families where, within the home, mother and father are respected by their children. Living with the early devas (gods) are those families where, within the home, mother and father are respected by their children. Living with the early teachers are those families where, within the home, mother and father are respected by their children. Living with those worthy of adoration are those families where, within the home, mother and father are respected by their children. 'Brahma,' bhikkhus, is a term for mother and father. 'Early devas' and 'early teachers' and 'those worthy of veneration' are terms for mother and father. For what reason? Because mother and father are very helpful to their children, they take care of them and bring them up and teach them about the world."


Mother and father are called
"Brahma,"
"early teachers"
And "worthy of veneration,"
Being compassionate towards
Their family of children.

Thus the wise should venerate them,
Pay them due honor,
Provide them with food and drink,
Give them clothing and a bed,
Anoint and bathe them
And also wash their feet.

When he performs such service
For his mother and his father,
They praise that wise person even here
And hereafter he rejoices in heaven


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Above, the Buddha has taken the Brahman term for "GOD" ("BRAHMA") and declared Brahma to be mother & father. :o

If there remain doubts about this, the Patriarchal Brahmanistic view is below:
When this was said, the Great Brahma said to the monk, 'I am Brahma, the Great Brahma, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Sovereign Lord, the Maker, Creator, Chief, Appointer and Ruler, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In summary:

* Brahma said: "I Am the Father of All"

* Jesus said: "I am the way to the Father".

* Buddha said: ""Brahma is Mother & Father"

Again, it seems quite conclusive, based on scripture, that Buddhism is not Patriarchal because even its idea of "God" is not exclusively male.

:yingyang:
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:57 pmIn example, in my humble opinion: having more rules for female monastics is "patriarchal" as it is fatherly love for females to keep them safe, which is what patriarchy is supposed to do...
My readings of the suttas find the Buddha did not engage in Identitarianism about "safety". My impression is the Buddha taught non-harming & morality keeps people "safe" rather than any particular sexual identity. For example:
Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world, there would not be discerned respect for mother or maternal aunt or maternal uncle's wife or a teacher's wife or the wives of other honored persons, and the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. But as these two bright principles protect the world, there is discerned respect for mother... and the wives of other honored persons."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
:yingyang:
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:57 pmIn example, in my humble opinion: having more rules for female monastics is "patriarchal" as it is fatherly love for females to keep them safe, which is what patriarchy is supposed to do...
SN 35.127 says:
Come, monks, whatever woman is a mother, think of her just as a mother; whatever woman is a sister, think of her just as a sister; whatever woman is a daughter, think of her just as a daughter.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
It seems Buddhism does not teach exclusively about a "Fatherly Love".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

It seems Buddhism does not teach exclusively about a "Fatherly Love".
[/quote]

It seems that the preceding argument of patriarchy is a strawman based on theological metaphysical ideas comparing to Christianity.

:strawman:

The patriarchal institutes of Buddhism are not the same as the patriarchal institutions of Islam or Christianity. :alien:

I think there should be focus :meditate: here on BUDDHISM not Christianity.

Its a very protean target here, and although the ideas of a Buddhist matriarchy have already been thoroughly refuted, its a still a fun thread.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by sentinel »

In Buddha’s time, the monks, as men, wandered freely but nuns are not allowed .


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It is impossible that a woman should be the Perfectly Awakened One. It is possible that a man should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is impossible that a woman should be the Universal Monarch … the King of Gods … Mara … Brahma …
MN115


“Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?”

“Ananda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and see its benefits.” – AN 4.80



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If, Ānanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Dhamma would have lasted long. The true Dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But because women have gone forth . . . in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now the Dhamma will not last long. The true Dhamma will endure only for five hundred years. Even, Ānanda, as those households which have many women and few men easily fall prey to robbers, to pot-thieves . . . in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long. Even as when the disease known as white bones (mildew) attacks a whole field of rice, that field of rice does not last long, even so, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long.
You always gain by giving
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 am In Buddha’s time, the monks, as men, wandered freely but nuns are not allowed .


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It is impossible that a woman should be the Perfectly Awakened One. It is possible that a man should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is impossible that a woman should be the Universal Monarch … the King of Gods … Mara … Brahma …
MN115


“Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?”

“Ananda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and see its benefits.” – AN 4.80



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If, Ānanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Dhamma would have lasted long. The true Dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But because women have gone forth . . . in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now the Dhamma will not last long. The true Dhamma will endure only for five hundred years. Even, Ānanda, as those households which have many women and few men easily fall prey to robbers, to pot-thieves . . . in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long. Even as when the disease known as white bones (mildew) attacks a whole field of rice, that field of rice does not last long, even so, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long.
Well look at that.

This is the kind of thing that a feminist, womynnist theologian of Buddhist studies could write a PhD dissertation on at starbucks on a Mac ProBook, while listening to a mixed playlist of Crass, Velvet Underground and Lady Gaga on an ipod. :tantrum:

Is there a way we can use some of these words as placeholders for postmodernist, gender-deconstructionist views and perform the slight-of-hand of revisionist hermeneutics?


Lets find out!

:popcorn:

So far:

Traditional Buddhism: 1 :buddha1:
Gender-Bender "Buddhism": 0 :toilet:

:geek:

As being a flagallant is explicitly self-mortification and against the middle way, I see very little hope for feminist, womynnist theology to successfully pull a hail-mary here.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:25 am...
Friend. As I mentioned, this chatsite is mostly comprised of laypeople, who are married with children. But, frankly, to me, it seems what you have been describing as "Patriarchy" in this thread is simply called "lust" in Lokuttara Dhamma. I did have a father who used to dote over girls, which caused him so much dukkha when Cultural Marxism took over the world. My father's favourite religion was the 'Virgin Mary, from when he lived in Spain. His family is Orthodox Xtian. No point clinging to a dying world with fatherly clinging. Jesus said: "There will come a time when the breasts that have not nursed will be those blessed". In Buddhism, the ultimate goal is "disenchantment towards all of the world". Nibbana is "not this world or another world". Fatherly lust in not the heart of Buddhism. Take care. :|
210. Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.

211. Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or unloved.

212. From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then fear?

213. From affection springs grief, from affection springs fear. For one who is wholly free from affection there is no grief, whence then fear?

214. From attachment springs grief, from attachment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from attachment there is no grief, whence then fear?

215. From lust springs grief, from lust springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?

216. From craving springs grief, from craving springs fear. For one who is wholly free from craving there is no grief; whence then fear?

218. One who is intent upon the Ineffable (Nibbana), dwells with mind inspired (by supramundane wisdom), and is no more bound by sense pleasures — such a man is called "One Bound Upstream."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:22 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:25 am...
Friend. As I mentioned, this chatsite is mostly comprised of laypeople, who are married with children.
Aren't you a homeowner who has a very nice backyard where you planted your bodhi tree? :thinking:

Don't you work and pay taxes like the rest of us lay people? :shrug:
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 amIn Buddha’s time, the monks, as men, wandered freely but nuns are not allowed .
Evidence? Thanks
James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 amIt is impossible that a woman should be the Perfectly Awakened One. It is possible that a man should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is impossible that a woman should be the Universal Monarch … the King of Gods … Mara … Brahma … MN115
The same sutta says only one Buddha in a world-system, i.e., only one Buddha is the last 2,600 years. This sutta does not say a woman cannot be an Arahant.
James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 am “Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?”

“Ananda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and see its benefits.” – AN 4.80
Don't believe everything you read. AN 4.80 is the most illogical sutta I have ever read.
Ananda, I answered Mara, the Evil One, saying: 'I shall not come to my final passing away, Evil One, until my bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen, have come to be true disciples — wise, well disciplined, apt and learned, preservers of the Dhamma, living according to the Dhamma, abiding by appropriate conduct and, having learned the Master's word, are able to expound it, preach it, proclaim it, establish it, reveal it, explain it in detail, and make it clear; until, when adverse opinions arise, they shall be able to refute them thoroughly and well, and to preach this convincing and liberating Dhamma.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .vaji.html
:candle:
James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 amIf, Ānanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Dhamma would have lasted long. The true Dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But because women have gone forth . . . in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now the Dhamma will not last long. The true Dhamma will endure only for five hundred years. Even, Ānanda, as those households which have many women and few men easily fall prey to robbers, to pot-thieves . . . in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long. Even as when the disease known as white bones (mildew) attacks a whole field of rice, that field of rice does not last long, even so, in whatever dhamma and discipline women obtain the going forth . . . that dhamma will not last long.
The above is not about Patriarchy. Also, since the Dhamma still exists in the world, the above appears false. It seems not all suttas are words of the Buddha. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 amAren't you a homeowner who has a very nice backyard where you planted your bodhi tree?
Yes. But I also know of monasteries that plant trees and build houses.
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 amDon't you work and pay taxes like the rest of us lay people?
Yes (well, semi-retired) but there are policy makers who suggest religious institutions should also pay taxes.

The difference is I don't dote over girls & women in a fatherly manner. I try to not be beguiled by appearances. :ugeek:

The suttas say:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The suttas say:
"And what may be said to be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement? Spouses & children... men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl & pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver [2] are subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. Subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement are these acquisitions, and one who is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement. This is ignoble search.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:03 am Lady Gaga :roll:
The bottom line is:

1. We both appear to consider Cultural Marxism is in the world.

2. But you give the impression you believe you can defeat Cultural Marxism; simply because you disagree with it or by living in Poland.

3. Where I consider the Power of the Beast (kilesa) is simply too strong.

4. I agree with Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, when he referred to the Nuclear Age of Fatherless Children:
The danger we're discussing here is amataputtika ("danger that makes one parentless'"). It's so great that not even our parents can rescue us. It's so vast that we can't help or parents either. No one can be of help to anyone else. Normally, this word applies only to the dukkha that arises out of birth, aging, illness, and death, in which children can't help their parents and parents are unable to help their children. This is an enormous and absolute danger. And now there is an external danger of the same magnitude, where parents and children can't help each other, which leaves us completely alone. Close your eyes and think about it. If a nuclear missile comes down, who's going to help who? We'll all be dust anyway; who can help who? This peril is of the same proportion and meaning as the words "we can't help each other in the matters of birth, aging, illness, and death."

In this nuclear age, such dangers can come at any time. Although we may have parents and children, it's as if we had no one. Then who will help us? What will help? I think that Dhamma will help us, which means the Buddha will help us.

Samatha-Vipassana for the Nuclear Age
In summary, the Buddha's main message was disenchantment towards all of the world. This is obviously not Patriarchy & Creationism.
43. Neither mother, father, nor any other relative can do one greater good than one's own well-directed mind.

Dhammapada
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:48 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 amAren't you a homeowner who has a very nice backyard where you planted your bodhi tree?
Yes.
Okay so thats common ground, my fellow upasaka.
DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:03 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:03 am Lady Gaga :roll:
The bottom line is:

1. We both appear to consider Cultural Marxism is in the world.

2. But you give the impression you believe you can defeat Cultural Marxism; simply because you disagree with it or by living in Poland.
Will stop at two, simply because I don't think I can defeat an octopus run on digital programming, government coercion, and puritanical Jesuitical propagandaists that reach all over the globe.

Its true that Poland is a very Catholic country and my pal here who is actually an atheist said something I would agree with: its better to be around the Catholic Myth than to be surrounded by the raping hoardes of Islamists and be jailed for disagreeing with the rape and its overt ideological underpinnings.

If you talk to Britishers today and bring up the grooming gangs, you can hear a pin drop in the room: calm as Hindu cows. Eyes like a deer in headlights (or a kangaroo!). They will even censor you if you bring it up and potentially say that Islam is very good for women's rights. This is what Orwell called "doublethink."

Their own daughters are being plied with liquor and ecstasy, seeded by inbred, illiterate fanatics and they do nothing, for fear of being considered 'racist' or 'sexist.'

Some would even say that a 14 year old girl being passed around by by these third-world part-time cab drivers is just a healthy expression of a young, cis-gendered womynne expressing her sexuality.

So no, I don't think it can be defeated in the world but only we can overcome lies by attempting to live the truth, i.e. the Dhamma, even being an example to others would be ideal, but alas, many of us fall short of that goal, myself included, at least up until now.

And yes, Burma is safe from this issue....NOW. They weren't 48 months ago, at all, before taking corrective action to protect their women and the Dhamma from rape and defilement. To say "go and be free and happy" to Bengalis, by escorting them to their own country is not a bad thing. Especially since they appear to be happy now away from the mean, scaaawwweee Buddhists.

I think Dravidians are capable of adapting Buddhism but their fascination with animal-sacrificing, demonic chthonic gods and goddesses like allah and shiva is pretty strong.
User avatar
Manopubbangama
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:17 pm
Location: Pennsylvania Route 969 *Europe*

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by Manopubbangama »

The patriarchy of Buddhism having been established from feminist revisionist onslaughts, we can move on.

Next step: show that there is no "mysogeny" involved as feminists like to say it is when you disagree with The Matriarchy.

So here is an Ode to my favorite Buddhist chica :heart: :

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


If the eye offendeth thee....

:shock: :jedi:

Talk about a chaste, virtuous woman.... :bow:
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:40 am
James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:38 amIn Buddha’s time, the monks, as men, wandered freely but nuns are not allowed .
Evidence? Thanks

Nuns’ Saṅghādisesa 3
… requiring a Formal Meeting of the Order because of going alone among villages … (as) in the first Defeat.


https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-pvr2.9/ ... r-brahmali



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



“Whatever nun should go among villages alone, that nun also has fallen into a matter that is an offence at once, entailing a formal meeting of the Order involving being sent away.”

Or should be away for a night alone means: at sunrise, if leaving a hand’s reach of a nun who is a companion, there is a grave offence. When she has left it, there is an offence entailing a formal meeting of the Order.


https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bi-vb-ss3/en/horner
You always gain by giving
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:40 amDon't believe everything you read. AN 4.80 is the most illogical sutta I have ever read.
Why did I say the above? I simply think these are very strange questions Ananda would ask the Buddha (about why women don't travel to Persia) and very strange replies, which contradict most of the suttas, which say there are good women. The Buddha exhorted equal ethics to both men & women.
At one time the Buddha was staying near Kosambi, in Ghosita’s Monastery. Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

Sir, what is the cause, what is the reason why females don’t attend council meetings, work for a living or travel to Persia?

Ānanda, females are angry, jealous, mean and unintelligent. This is the cause, this is the reason why females don’t attend council meetings, work for a living or travel to Persia.”

Sujato
Bhante, why is it that women do not sit in council, or engage in business, or go to Kamboja?

Ānanda, women are prone to anger; women are envious; women are misery; women are unwise.

Bodhi
In my experience, in the modern professional workforce, I have found most people, both men & women, generally prefer a male boss to a female boss. However, there still remain some exceptionally good female managers (and enough idiotic male managers).
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:59 amRead the Nikayas in this order

Anguttara nikaya -> Samyutta Nikaya -> Majjhima Nikaya -> Digha Nikaya
For me, the most questionable suttas are found in Digha Nikaya; then Anguttara Nikaya; then a distant Majjhima Nikaya; then Samyutta Nikaya. For years I had an Anguttara Nikaya Anthology and regarded it so highly that I couldn't wait to get VBB's new translation of the entire AN. What a disappointment! The Anthology was sufficient.
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:52 amfellow upasaka.
Sorry but I started celibacy (brahmacharya) at 22 years old, before even finding Buddhism, and 100% celibacy at 23 years old. Naturally, if there were any path attainments, these cannot be disclosed (however i do not recall any significant hindrances when commencing meditation). Unlikely we are "fellow upasaka". The Buddha-Dhamma lists many levels of Buddhists, namely, faith-follower, dhamma-follower, stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner and arahant. The suttas (AN 9.5) explain benevolence is when the moral act to make the immoral moral, when a stream-enterer acts to makes a non-streamerer a stream-enterer, etc. Sorry, but none of this appears to apply to us since we appear to be in constant disagreement about Dhamma. As I posted with complete truthfulness & factualness, monks build houses & plant trees. There is absolutely nothing about houses & trees that creates spiritual equality or differences. Your ideas about houses & trees appear completely irrelevant. The fact that we completely disagree about this, as well as disagree about most other Buddhist matters, shows we obviously cannot be "fellow upasaka". Imagine if I called the Buddha "friend", an "equal"? As we know by the suttas, this is a transgression.
And what, monks, is the power of benevolence? There are four ways of benevolence; by gifts, by friendly speech, by helpful acts and by bestowal of equity. This is the best of gifts: the gift of Dhamma. And this is the best of friendly speech: to teach again and again Dhamma to those who wish for it and who listen attentively. And this is the best of helpful acts: to arouse, instil and strengthen faith in the unbeliever; to arouse, instil and strengthen virtue in the immoral; to arouse, instil and strengthen generosity in the niggard; to arouse, instil and strengthen wisdom in the unwise. And this is the best bestowal of equity: if a stream-winner becomes equal to a stream-winner; a once-returner equal to a once-returner; a non-returner equal to a non-returner; and an arahant equal to an arahant. This, monks, is called the power of benevolence.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el238.html
:candle:
James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:28 pm Nuns’ Saṅghādisesa 3
… requiring a Formal Meeting of the Order because of going alone among villages … (as) in the first Defeat.
Sure. I know this. But it merely says "alone". Its no big deal; apart from a natural concern for safety. Even today, it is advised women don't walk alone at night. Just recently, in Australia, another highly publicised murder of a woman walking alone at night. A previous murder here. Both cases were foreign women visiting Australia and in both cases relatives expressed the view Australia is a safe place.

In the United States, rape was once a serious crime but largely thanks to this feminist (who wrote the legal case), who argued serious penalties for rape were patriarchy, rape charges in the USA were reduced. So what do you want? Bhikkunis wandering alone and getting raped? Do you believe sensible intelligent women believe bhikkunis should walk alone? It seems unrelated to patriarchy to me and just the ideas of self-hating or deluded women. I think any sensible intelligent wise woman would agree bhikkhunis should not wander alone.
Ginsburg’s brief aimed to limit the scope of the death penalty, which was in its formative stages in post-Gregg federal jurisprudence. The brief is also a powerful feminist document, linking the death penalty for rape with the patriarchal foundation of law as primarily protecting the male property interest in women’s purity.

New York City Law Review
I think James, instead of taking to heart the feminism on SC, you should consider the fact that probably a majority, if not large minority, of Western women are opposed to feminism. 'Feminism' in reality does not appear to reflect what is 'feminine'. Regards. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:39 am, edited 7 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:57 pm...fatherly love...
In the talk below, the renowned Thai monk Bhikkhu Buddhadasa discusses his views about the three levels of religious love, namely:

1. Raga - lust

2. Pema - instinctual love; filial love; motherly & fatherly love

3. Metta-karuna - loving-kindness
"Ordinary, people just play around with this word love.... "

"The different religions cannot even smile together.... breaking into parties & factions... even within the religion..."

"If we use love improperly, it becomes hot, like a fire"...

"If we misunderstand love, it becomes another kind of insanity.... "

"If it is purely an instinctual thing... it is called pema in Pali.... in English called "love"... ordinary instinctual level"...

"This mere instinctual level occurs when there is no real understanding... there is moha... delusion... there is attachment... "

"The instinctual level still contains a lot of attachment... to the degree we would die for each other... just as a mother [or father] would die for their child... like we see in animals... this is a way of measuring the strength of this instinctual love... it can have quite a bit of attachment where by one would die for thing one loves... "

"We call it pema - full of delusion, lacking in mindfulness & wisdom; the love of life; the love of oneself; these are the fullest forms of pema; yet they still fill of moha (delusion); this kind of love is still mixed up with selfishness"...

"This kind of instinctual love is necessary for reproduction... if we didn't have this kind of love.... then all the species would go instinct... although this love is somewhat foolish or stupid... it is still necessary..."

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa

Pemato jāyatī soko,
pemato jāyatī bhayaṃ;
Pemato vippamuttassa,
natthi soko kuto bhayaṃ.

From affection springs grief,
From affection springs fear.
For one who is wholly free from affection
There is no grief, whence then fear?

Dhammapada 213
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is Buddhism is a very patriarchal religion ???

Post by justindesilva »

Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:33 am
DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:22 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:25 am...
Friend. As I mentioned, this chatsite is mostly comprised of laypeople, who are married with children.
Aren't you a homeowner who has a very nice backyard where you planted your bodhi tree? :thinking:

Don't you work and pay taxes like the rest of us lay people? :shrug:
This needs an answer accountable for lay upasaka , which is perhaps not written in sutta. Hence the need to seek answers : one that is found in The journal in sexual medicine (2010.11.01) speaks of changing feminine figure of females. This has an effect on habits and sexual activities on females ( to cut down on a lengthy discussion). Again with www.bbc.com addresses the fact of variety desired by men and women in sex along with the interest of porno in society.
Summarily what I view from these articles is that men are more sexually aroused by imagination of figures while females are not. Nature has developed sexuality in women through contact ( phasso as said in buddhism).
It is of my view that as of men mental culture (meditation) can control males better against contact which is one of the five aggregates.
Women at any age is found to be roused by contact while porno culture prooves that men at any age is roused sexually by pornos.
Considering these facts meditation has a stronger effect on men spiritually while for women methods of vipassana against contact are more appropriate.
As phassa or contact on all indriya acts more vulnerably on all, women are an easy sexual ( kama) target , and that could be the reason why patriarchy is seen in buddhism in a stronger manner.
Five indriya rupa ( passa) vedana sanna sankara vingnana lead the mind in the character of a person .
Post Reply