I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Sam Vara »

Bhikkhu Pannobhasa (David Reynolds) normally focuses on political and historical topics these days, but here he makes some very good points about regret:
One principle of Buddhist philosophy that I have really taken to heart in life is that regret, or remorse, or feelings of shame and guilt over deeds done, is always bad. Using Buddhist terminology it is “unskillful” or “bad karma”; that is, it always has negative effects and makes matters worse than they already are. In short, regret over the past takes one farther away from wisdom and happiness, let alone Nirvana.
Many Westerners in particular find this quite a hard teaching to accept. The whole post is well worth careful reading. The episode "Let this be a lesson" he refers to is some serious sexual misconduct he engaged in while living in America.

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... et_15.html
SarathW
Posts: 21237
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by SarathW »

Whatever the Dukkha has arisen (Samudaya) in the past now has ceased (Nirodha).
We have to make sure no more Dukkha arise right now.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Sam Vara »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:58 am Whatever the Dukkha has arisen (Samudaya) in the past now has ceased (Nirodha).
We have to make sure no more Dukkha arise right now.
Agreed. What I find interesting about this point is expressed like this by Reynolds:
One might argue that remorse and “repentance” may have the positive effect of discouraging similar misconduct in future; after all, there are many people in this world who have become better people from having to change themselves, because they felt like dirt and could hardly live with themselves after doing something bad or harmful or wrong. Nevertheless, using feelings of guilt as a behavioral modifier is rather like pounding nails with one’s fist—one may get the nail hammered down, but it hurts the hell out of one’s fist in the process.
Although the past is dead and gone, the fear of incurring painful feelings of guilt over one's present actions are, for many people, an apparently effective brake upon certain actions. The desire not to feel guilty seems to be a valid part of hiri-ottappa. As Reynolds says, such moral scruples are to be entertained before we act. But would they be as effective if we had a less keen sense of regret?
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by DooDoot »

A striking example can be found in the comments to my notorious post “Let This Be a Lesson” on the old blog. Even though I had freely acknowledged that I had learned my lesson and had no intention of repeating the experiment (which involved breaking a few relatively very serious rules... But I did not really regret my actions (which did not involve war crimes or pedophilia), and still don’t; and to apologize falsely with the magic formula “I’m sorry” would have added dishonesty to my list of misdeeds.
If a feeling of feeling sorry does not arise, what lesson is there? If an action does not cause "hurt" (for which to be sorry towards), how can a lesson be learned? I read the article. While I do not in any way condemn the writer, I think the other bhikkhus expect the writer to express himself with sympathy, for a bhikkhu.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:30 am
A striking example can be found in the comments to my notorious post “Let This Be a Lesson” on the old blog. Even though I had freely acknowledged that I had learned my lesson and had no intention of repeating the experiment (which involved breaking a few relatively very serious rules... But I did not really regret my actions (which did not involve war crimes or pedophilia), and still don’t; and to apologize falsely with the magic formula “I’m sorry” would have added dishonesty to my list of misdeeds.
If a feeling of feeling sorry does not arise, what lesson is there? If an action does not cause "hurt" (for which to be sorry towards), how can a lesson be learned?
My impression is that he has some muddled thinking around this particular episode, but that he wishes to distinguish between a resolve to refrain from committing certain acts again, and falling into regret (i.e. wishing that they hadn't happened in the first place).
thepea
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:47 am Bhikkhu Pannobhasa (David Reynolds) normally focuses on political and historical topics these days, but here he makes some very good points about regret:
One principle of Buddhist philosophy that I have really taken to heart in life is that regret, or remorse, or feelings of shame and guilt over deeds done, is always bad. Using Buddhist terminology it is “unskillful” or “bad karma”; that is, it always has negative effects and makes matters worse than they already are. In short, regret over the past takes one farther away from wisdom and happiness, let alone Nirvana.
Many Westerners in particular find this quite a hard teaching to accept. The whole post is well worth careful reading. The episode "Let this be a lesson" he refers to is some serious sexual misconduct he engaged in while living in America.

http://politicallyincorrectdharma.blogs ... et_15.html
Going to call BS on this one.
Great way to become a sociopath.
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by auto »

fake remorse.

edit: not fake actually. It seem written when having good time, i wonder if he deluded by the temporal state of absence of remorse. Also remorse isn't you can just decide to quit having it.
Last edited by auto on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 amMy impression is that he has some muddled thinking around this particular episode, but that he wishes to distinguish between a resolve to refrain from committing certain acts again, and falling into regret (i.e. wishing that they hadn't happened in the first place).
Personally, I sensed he was getting both lost in & attached to certain words (terminology). He tried to distinguish between the hindrance of "remorse" and the skilful dhamma of "hiri" ("moral dread/moral shame/conscience"). His attempt to define "hiri" as only applicable to before acting was unconvincing to me. This said, I personally fully empathize with what David attempted to say. Its not Dhamma practise to wallow in the past. The purpose of Dhamma is happiness & liberation. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Volo
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Volo »

Remorse (Kukkucca) is one of the five nīvāraņas, about which Buddha said that they are a heap of unwholesome, and from unwholesome cannot come anything wholesome. But seeing a fault as a fault is a growth in the Noble Ones' discipline. Acknowledge, try not to do it again, and move on.

But remorse is praised in Tibetan Buddhism (may be Mahayana does this as well, I'm not sure), where feeling remorseful is one of the necessary "ingredients" in purifying (eliminating) bad karma (which they believe is possible).
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:56 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:42 amMy impression is that he has some muddled thinking around this particular episode, but that he wishes to distinguish between a resolve to refrain from committing certain acts again, and falling into regret (i.e. wishing that they hadn't happened in the first place).
Personally, I sensed he was getting both lost in & attached to certain words (terminology). He tried to distinguish between the hindrance of "remorse" and the skilful dhamma of "hiri" ("moral dread/moral shame/conscience"). His attempt to define "hiri" as only applicable to before acting was unconvincing to me. This said, I personally fully empathize with what David attempted to say. Its not Dhamma practise to wallow in the past. The purpose of Dhamma is happiness & liberation. :smile:
Yes, I think you are probably right. Unless we have the sting of knowing that we have done wrong, then "hiri" would be a bit of an empty concept, and have zero ability to change our actions. Hence my interest...

As an example of where fruitless wallowing in remorse leads, someone just sent me this:
When the loud day for men who sow and reap
Grows still, and on the silence of the town
The unsubstantial veils of night and sleep,
The meed of the day's labour, settle down,
Then for me in the stillness of the night
The wasting, watchful hours drag on their course,
And in the idle darkness comes the bite
Of all the burning serpents of remorse;
Dreams seethe; and fretful infelicities
Are swarming in my over-burdened soul,
And Memory before my wakeful eyes
With noiseless hand unwinds her lengthy scroll.
Then, as with loathing I peruse the years,
I tremble, and I curse my natal day,
Wail bitterly, and bitterly shed tears,
But cannot wash the woeful script away.
(Pushkin, Tr. Maurice Baring.)
User avatar
Volo
Posts: 1065
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Volo »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:04 pm As an example of where fruitless wallowing in remorse leads, someone just sent me this:
When the loud day for men who sow and reap
Grows still, and on the silence of the town
The unsubstantial veils of night and sleep,
The meed of the day's labour, settle down,
Then for me in the stillness of the night
The wasting, watchful hours drag on their course,
And in the idle darkness comes the bite
Of all the burning serpents of remorse;
Dreams seethe; and fretful infelicities
Are swarming in my over-burdened soul,
And Memory before my wakeful eyes
With noiseless hand unwinds her lengthy scroll.
Then, as with loathing I peruse the years,
I tremble, and I curse my natal day,
Wail bitterly, and bitterly shed tears,
But cannot wash the woeful script away.
(Pushkin, Tr. Maurice Baring.)
I think the translation is not accurate. The last line should be not "But cannot wash the woeful script away", but rather "But I do not wash the woeful script away." Although he cries and laments "reading" his life "with disgust", still he choses to keep "woeful lines", which have been "written".
auto
Posts: 4584
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by auto »

Volo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:04 pm Remorse (Kukkucca) is one of the five nīvāraņas, about which Buddha said that they are a heap of unwholesome, and from unwholesome cannot come anything wholesome. But seeing a fault as a fault is a growth in the Noble Ones' discipline. Acknowledge, try not to do it again, and move on.

But remorse is praised in Tibetan Buddhism (may be Mahayana does this as well, I'm not sure), where feeling remorseful is one of the necessary "ingredients" in purifying (eliminating) bad karma (which they believe is possible).
Remorse, anxiety, aversion etc as a feeling is attained when having stop lamenting, stop wailing, stop blaming oneself etc.

If you say "try not do it again" its what eventually brings remorse out.

and how you get rid of that painful feeling is by power, not letting that feeling drag you down. That feeling goes to the soles, bones, legs idk, you can get to these areas, in hindu myth legs are patala, hells. It will be for your own good to have that skill unless you want to born in these areas
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Assaji »

Volo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:04 pm Remorse (Kukkucca) is one of the five nīvāraņas, about which Buddha said that they are a heap of unwholesome, and from unwholesome cannot come anything wholesome. But seeing a fault as a fault is a growth in the Noble Ones' discipline. Acknowledge, try not to do it again, and move on.
Yes, "hiri" and "ottappa" are guardians of the world:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_23.html
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by Sam Vara »

Volo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:22 pm
I think the translation is not accurate. The last line should be not "But cannot wash the woeful script away", but rather "But I do not wash the woeful script away." Although he cries and laments "reading" his life "with disgust", still he choses to keep "woeful lines", which have been "written".
Many thanks, Volo. If I've understood it correctly, that makes it an even more obvious case of wallowing in remorse; we choose to do so because at some level we are attached to it.

:anjali:
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: I've had a few...but then again...too few to mention...

Post by chownah »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:47 am Bhikkhu Pannobhasa (David Reynolds) normally focuses on political and historical topics these days, but here he makes some very good points about regret:
One principle of Buddhist philosophy that I have really taken to heart in life is that regret, or remorse, or feelings of shame and guilt over deeds done, is always bad. Using Buddhist terminology it is “unskillful” or “bad karma”; that is, it always has negative effects and makes matters worse than they already are. In short, regret over the past takes one farther away from wisdom and happiness, let alone Nirvana.
I think the issue is more complex than it seems at first sight.
AN 7.32 Hirima Sutta: A Sense of Shame
"Last night, monks, a certain devata in the far extreme of the night, her extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, came to me and, on arrival, bowed down to me and stood to one side. As she was standing there, she said to me, 'These seven qualities, lord, lead to a monk's non-decline. Which seven? Respect for the teacher, respect for the Dhamma, respect for the Sangha, respect for training, respect for concentration, respect for shame, respect for compunction. These seven qualities, lord, lead to a monk's non-decline.'

"That is what that devata said. Having said it, she bowed down to me, circled me three times, and then disappeared right there."


Respecting the Teacher
respecting the Dhamma,
and with fierce respect for the Sangha,
respecting concentration, ardent,
and with fierce respect for training,
consummate in shame & compunction,
deferential, respectful
— incapable of decline —
one is right in the presence of unbinding.
chownah
Post Reply