Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

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DooDoot
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by DooDoot »

budo wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 pmAlso what about Jotipala (also Gotama) who met Kassapa Buddha and ordained under him?
My recollection is a once-returner has eradicated three fetters; which would mean Gotama would have always been free from view of real self and always had no doubts about the Path. If this was so, Gotama would not have been required to search for the Path. This apparent contradiction makes MN 81 questionable (unless Jotipala was a poor student of poor learning).

MN 123 gives an account of Gotama's birth; which appears to contradict MN 64; giving the impression MN 123 is also questionable; unless we believe in supernatural Jesus-like feats of new born infants.
MN 123 wrote:‘As soon as he’s born, the being intent on awakening stands firm with his own feet on the ground. Facing north, he takes seven strides with a white parasol held above him, surveys all quarters, and makes this dramatic statement: “I am the foremost in the world! I am the eldest in the world! I am the best in the world! This is my last rebirth. Now there are no more future lives.”’

https://suttacentral.net/mn123/en/sujato
MN 123 wrote:For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?...

https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
I recommend Bhikkhu Sujato's recent introduction to the DN (here); which appears to give a possible reason why the DN creates stories about past Buddhas to impress & complete with the Brahman priests.
It is no coincidence that these elaborate texts are often addressed to the brahmins, who were the self-proclaimed spiritual leaders of the time. The brahmins were the custodians of the most sophisticated texts in ancient India up to this time, the Vedic literature. It seems that one aim of the Dīgha was to impress such learned men. These discourses offer a wide range of examples of how the Buddha related to those of other religious paths.

Bhikkhu Sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by Zom »

Hmm, the Buddha talks about other Buddhas in DN14
Yes, he's seen them with his iddhi-power's recollection, but I don't think he met them personally.
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by form »

The thread is very interesting.
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by budo »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:58 am
budo wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 pmAlso what about Jotipala (also Gotama) who met Kassapa Buddha and ordained under him?
My recollection is a once-returner has eradicated three fetters; which would mean Gotama would have always been free from view of real self and always had no doubts about the Path. If this was so, Gotama would not have been required to search for the Path. This apparent contradiction makes MN 81 questionable (unless Jotipala was a poor student of poor learning).

MN 123 gives an account of Gotama's birth; which appears to contradict MN 64; giving the impression MN 123 is also questionable; unless we believe in supernatural Jesus-like feats of new born infants.
MN 123 wrote:‘As soon as he’s born, the being intent on awakening stands firm with his own feet on the ground. Facing north, he takes seven strides with a white parasol held above him, surveys all quarters, and makes this dramatic statement: “I am the foremost in the world! I am the eldest in the world! I am the best in the world! This is my last rebirth. Now there are no more future lives.”’

https://suttacentral.net/mn123/en/sujato
MN 123 wrote:For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?...

https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
I recommend Bhikkhu Sujato's recent introduction to the DN (here); which appears to give a possible reason why the DN creates stories about past Buddhas to impress & complete with the Brahman priests.
It is no coincidence that these elaborate texts are often addressed to the brahmins, who were the self-proclaimed spiritual leaders of the time. The brahmins were the custodians of the most sophisticated texts in ancient India up to this time, the Vedic literature. It seems that one aim of the Dīgha was to impress such learned men. These discourses offer a wide range of examples of how the Buddha related to those of other religious paths.

Bhikkhu Sujato
The four conditions of a sotapanna is:

1) Perfect virtue
2) Belief in the dhamma, buddha, sangha

There is nothing there about "I-making", from my understanding when a sotapanna is born he has an inclination towards the dhamma, and thus he will search for it.

"According to the Sotapattisamyutta the Buddha once visited the bedside of Dighavu the lay disciple who was terminally ill (S.v,344). The Master advised him to fix his attention on unwavering confidence in the noble qualities of the Triple Gem and to will that he be endowed with spotless virtuous conduct. Dighavu replied that these qualities of a stream-enterer are already found in him. " - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... bl132.html

He won't have a "self view" but that doesn't mean he can't use conventional language. Someone who is born a sotapanna will use conventional language, but will not have a view of permanent self, and maybe won't realize that others DO have a view of permanent self until he is much older, then he'll realize he is different from others. As he does not have the tendency for self-view thus he doesn't develop it through conditioning like others do from their childhood.

Hence, Gotama was born with spotless virtue and had an inclination towards the dhamma, thus leading him on his search.

Although I do agree with your DN/MN quotes being a little crazy and perhaps to compete with vedics/brahmans, but that's off-topic.
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by cappuccino »

budo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:12 pm The four conditions of a sotapanna is
more is required than you seem to think
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by budo »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:16 pm
budo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:12 pm The four conditions of a sotapanna is
more is required than you seem to think
It's not what I think, it's what the suttas say, suttas that you should be linking.
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by DooDoot »

budo wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:12 pmThe four conditions of a sotapanna is:

1) Perfect virtue
2) Belief in the dhamma, buddha, sangha
The stream-enterer has cut the lower three fetters. Regardless, the above in the suttas refers to "verified faith" in the Dhamma; which appears to imply realisation. As I suggested, if Gotama had verified faith in the Dhamma Path, it seems his Noble Search would have been unnecessary. Regards
"Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:58 am
My recollection is a once-returner has eradicated three fetters
I'm sorry, but this statement is factually incomplete. :thinking:

I think maybe you are thinking of a "stream-enterer" perhaps? :quote:

A "once-returner" is something we call in Pali a Sakadāgāmin.

A Sakadāgāmin has eliminated 3 fetters and strongly weakened two:

1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will

If a once-returner had only eradicated three fetters, how would he be any different from a stream-enterer? :shrug:

I know that an an internet poster its not always feasable to fact check, but I think that you will agree that this is...important? :ugeek:
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pmI'm sorry, but this statement is factually incomplete.
I think trivial irrelevant posts are best avoided because this just confuses people and newbies.

I only mentioned two fetters because these are the two fetters that are exclusive to Buddhism and which define the Buddhist Path. They are the only two fetters relevant to the discussion.

:focus:
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pm 1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self = only Buddhist
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals = also taught by Christianity
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt [about the Path] = only Buddhist
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving = also taught by Christianity
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will = also taught by Christianity

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:51 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pmI'm sorry, but this statement is factually incomplete.
I think trivial irrelevant posts are best avoided because this just confuses people and newbies.

I only mentioned two fetters because these are the two fetters that are exclusive to Buddhism and which define the Buddhist Path. They are the only two fetters relevant to the discussion.

:focus:
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pm 1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self = only Buddhist
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals = also taught by Christianity
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt [about the Path] = only Buddhist
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving = also taught by Christianity
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will = also taught by Christianity

:focus:
Being thorough is a part of scholarship 101. The opposite of this is internet sloppiness.

There is no reason to meander into the obsession with Christianity, either.

Please stick to the topic.

No more meta-discussion.
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:51 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pmI'm sorry, but this statement is factually incomplete.
I think trivial irrelevant posts are best avoided because this just confuses people and newbies.

I only mentioned two fetters because these are the two fetters that are exclusive to Buddhism and which define the Buddhist Path. They are the only two fetters relevant to the discussion.

:focus:
Manopubbangama wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:25 pm 1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self = only Buddhist
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals = also taught by Christianity
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt [about the Path] = only Buddhist
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving = also taught by Christianity
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will = also taught by Christianity

:focus:
Being thorough is a part of scholarship 101. The opposite of this is internet sloppiness.

There is no reason to meander into the obsession with Christianity, either.

Please stick to the topic.

No more meta-discussion.


1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will
:twothumbsup:
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Re: Sutta source that the Buddha does not have a path?

Post by budo »

Just stumbled upon this:

“Bhikkhus, there is one person who arises in the world for the
welfare of many people, for the happiness of many people, out of compassion for the world, for the good, welfare, and happi-
ness of devas and human beings. Who is that one person? The
Tathāgata, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. This is
that one person who arises in the world for the good, welfare, and happiness of devas and human beings.”

- AN 1.170

So the Buddha is an Arahant.
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