What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Ivy Piyen
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by Ivy Piyen »

Hello, what kind of forum is this?!
I made a topic for discussion of this timeless model and you are completely derailing this thread telling me how i am unable to understand it and need to study, how my questions are bad but i am merely asking for some basic definitions...

You gave references to some authors and don't want to answer the questions, THAT IS FINE you don't have to answer but there is no need to put down the questioneer and tell me how there is something wrong with me.

If my questions are too ill defined, tell me which one for i was simply asking for definitions.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:31 am
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:57 am So what exactly might be the ground for proclaiming something that is outside of the All?
I'm not the one to ask, because I'm not proclaiming something that is outside of the All. I repeat, "I'm simply saying there are dhammas, or not."
Actually you did do this in the very next sentence;
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:10 am You're over-reaching... I'm simply saying there are dhammas, or not. That which is not experienced is outside "the All" and thus of no relevance to the Dhamma.
I suppose you are not willing to be questioned on the matter.

I did not choose you to be expert, i just saw you were giving advice left and right about this stuff and figured you knew what it was you was talking about.

Anyway i am not interested in further discussion with you.

If somebody is capable of discussing Nanavira's interpretations i would like to further explore the matter i would be happy to proceed from where Retrofuturist dropped off.
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retrofuturist
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 am THAT IS FINE you don't have to answer but there is no need to put down the questioneer and tell me how there is something wrong with me.
That's not what I've done. I've told you what I think would actually be helpful, and for whatever reason you are seemingly deaf to it.

On that basis, I will take your offer of not answering.
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 am Anyway i am not interested in further discussion with you.
:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ivy Piyen
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by Ivy Piyen »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 am Greetings,
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 am THAT IS FINE you don't have to answer but there is no need to put down the questioneer and tell me how there is something wrong with me.
That's not what I've done. I've told you what I think would actually be helpful, and for whatever reason you are seemingly deaf to it.

On that basis, I will take your offer of not answering.
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 am Anyway i am not interested in further discussion with you.
:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well you actually did act, want me to reference it?
Respectfully, you are most likely to be left confused, if you continue to approach the issue via a line of sporadic questions.
You're reading too much into it... many thoughts and imaginings, but that's not the way forward in terms of understanding and realising all this.
The task is to bring your mind in conformity with the Dhamma, not to bring the Dhamma in conformity with your mind.
All that is condescending and presumptious
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:26 am There is that which is experienced, which is known as a dhamma, and there is that which is not, which is not a dhamma.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:10 am That which is not experienced is outside "the All" and thus of no relevance to the Dhamma.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Last edited by Ivy Piyen on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 am
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 am Anyway i am not interested in further discussion with you.
:anjali:
:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by cappuccino »

Dependent origination was an insight after his enlightenment.

It isn't crucial.
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:24 am Dependent origination was an insight after his enlightenment.

It isn't crucial.
I think you'll find that it was the Buddha's detailed articulation and formulations of paticcasamuppada that came after his enlightenment, rather than his insight into it.

Idappaccayatā, of which paticcasamuppada is an elaboration, is indeed crucial.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:29 am Idappaccayatā, of which paticcasamuppada is an elaboration, is indeed crucial.
that all things arise and exist due to certain causes, and cease once these causes are removed
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:33 am
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:29 am Idappaccayatā, of which paticcasamuppada is an elaboration, is indeed crucial.
that all things arise and exist due to certain causes, and cease once these causes are removed
Yes.
SN 12.15 wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by cappuccino »

Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:55 amHello, what kind of forum is this?!
learn to be calm
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DooDoot
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by DooDoot »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:24 amDependent origination was an insight after his enlightenment.
SN 12.10
"Monks, [likewise] before I attained supreme Enlightenment, while I was still a Bodhisatta....

SN 12.10
:candle:
Ivy Piyen wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 am Here are the questions;
what is a "mental object" and are there non-mental objects?
How does this timeless model work with Birth, Aging and Death links of dependent origination?
Hello Ivy

Is the following quote related to your question? If so, how would you interpret this? Thanks
Aging-and-death, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away and cessation.

Birth is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away and cessation.

.... aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/bodhi
How do birth & death "fade away"? :shrug:
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by cappuccino »

Then, as I considered this thoroughly, the insight and comprehension dawned on me: 'Ignorance being present the formations come to be; the formations are conditioned by ignorance.' And so we have it like this: 'Conditioned by ignorance are the formations, conditioned by the formations is consciousness... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering.'
OK
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:57 am


Aging-and-death, bhikkhus, is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away and cessation.

Birth is impermanent, conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, vanishing, fading away and cessation.

.... aniccaṃ saṅkhataṃ paṭiccasamuppannaṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ virāgadhammaṃ nirodhadhammaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/bodhi
How do birth & death "fade away"? :shrug:


FYI
The translation of sn 12.20 might be corrupted .
If one try to read the parallel agama Sa 296 , the translation is somewhat different .






“The Tathāgata, who has by himself become enlightened with regard to this, who has attained the highest enlightenment, declares it for humankind, teaches it, reveals it, namely: Conditioned by ignorance are activities, and so on …, conditioned by birth are aging and death.


The Tathāgata, who has by himself become enlightened of this, who has attained the highest enlightenment, declares it for humankind, teaches it, reveals it, namely: Conditioned by birth, there exist aging-sickness-death-sorrow-affliction-suffering.

Such conformity to conditioned genesis is called the dharmas arisen by causal condition, namely: Ignorance, activities, consciousness, name-and-form, the six sense-spheres, contact, feeling, craving, attachment, becoming, birth, aging-sickness-death-sorrow-affliction-suffering. This is called the dharmas arisen by causal condition.


https://suttacentral.net/sa296/en/choong
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by Manopubbangama »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:29 am
Idappaccayatā, of which paticcasamuppada is an elaboration, is indeed crucial.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Isn't Idappaccayatā the favorite word of that buddhadasa dude?

I believe he is the only one who has ever published a book with this word in the title?

Are you a fan of his?
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:25 pmIdappaccayata
Idappaccayatā is a Pali word found in the Pali suttas; which are supposed to be the reported words of the Buddha, such as:
‘This principle I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of reason, subtle, comprehensible to the astute.

‘adhigato kho myāyaṃ dhammo gambhīro duddaso duranubodho santo paṇīto atakkāvacaro nipuṇo paṇḍitavedanīyo.

But people like attachment, they love it and enjoy it.

Ālayarāmā kho panāyaṃ pajā ālayaratā ālayasammuditā.

It’s hard for them to see this thing; that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination.

Ālayarāmāya kho pana pajāya ālayaratāya ālayasammuditāya duddasaṃ idaṃ ṭhānaṃ yadidaṃ—idappaccayatā paṭiccasamuppādo.

It’s also hard for them to see this thing; that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.

Idampi kho ṭhānaṃ duddasaṃ yadidaṃ—sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṃ.

And if I were to teach the Dhamma, others might not understand me, which would be wearying and troublesome for me.’

Ahañceva kho pana dhammaṃ deseyyaṃ, pare ca me na ājāneyyuṃ, so mamassa kilamatho, sā mamassa vihesā’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
Again:
Whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles, specific conditionality.

Uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā.

A Realized One understands this and comprehends it,

Taṃ tathāgato abhisambujjhati abhisameti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.20/en/sujato
It seems the Buddha said idappaccayatā is comprehensible to the astute. :ugeek:
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Re: What is timeless model of the dependent origination of conditioned phenomena?

Post by pegembara »

Time is a mental construct. To me DO is a way of seeing(in the here and now) that is independent of time.
Our illusion of the past arises because each Now in Platonia contains objects that appear as "records" in Barbour's language. "The only evidence you have of last week is your memory. But memory comes from a stable structure of neurons in your brain now. The only evidence we have of the Earth's past is rocks and fossils. But these are just stable structures in the form of an arrangement of minerals we examine in the present. The point is, all we have are these records and you only have them in this Now."

https://www.popsci.com/science/article/ ... ime#page-2
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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