Theravada is actively growing in the West. What is your take on what the future of that may bring?

[daniil]

I see two ways this may go.

1) the intial thrill of a growing world wide community coupled with ever expanding resources avaliable to the public counteracted by the inevitable 'commercialization'. this may lead to the eventual decline of the dhamma here.

2) growing community coupled with eventual adoption of UBI (universal basic income) as well as general education issued to every child on the planet will include meditative practices. all this allows therevada to travel forth into the upcoming bio-tech age as one of the predominant religions, in turn leading to eventual spread of the dhamma and cessation of the wheel of samsara as all beings achieve arahantship (might take 20-50 thousand years of space age and more samsara)


what do you think?

[Coëmgenu]

How many monastics is Western Theravāda producing? IMO that is the question. Mahāyāna is also actively growing in the West, but it is not producing practitioners who observe the vinaya at the rate at which it produces Buddha-devotees in the laity.

Is Western Theravāda producing vinaya adherents or a large mass of lay devotees? IMO that is the real question.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

what do you think?

Neither of the pathways you define seems remotely plausible for reasons I won't go into lest we lead the topic astray.

I think Theravada Buddhism will continue to be a largely culturally inherited phenomenon. What has changed since the start of the Information Age is that the Buddha's teaching are more readily available to spiritual seekers than they have been previously.

I don't predict any major upturn or downturn in interest in them, nor envisage any social evolution which will substantially change the parameters above.

Metta,
Paul.

[JamesTheGiant]

what do you think?

Remember the Buddha himself talked about how his teachings would inevitably fade away and be forgotten. I think that's happening already...
Even strong Theravada followers can't agree on some fundamental, important parts of the Buddha's teachings.

[DNS]

Religion in general has been on the decline in recent years and decades. Church, temple attendance has been steadily going down in developed nations. As the under-developed nations become more developed, i.e., no longer third-world we can expect to see declining rates there too. People are moving toward secular-humanism, atheist, agnostic. Billions might be classified as Christian, Muslim, or Buddhist but for a sizable portion, it is more "by birth-certificate" rather than actually holding those religious beliefs.

I imagine many Buddhist practices, especially mindfulness-meditation will be absorbed into some syncretic forms of spirituality and there will be various syncretic practices out in the marketplace.

If one accepts the traditional cosmology, then there will never be a time when all beings attain arahantship at the same time. There will always be some beings who are not ready for it, be it because of kamma or life as an animal, etc.

[SarathW]

In fact, Arthur C. Clark a futuristic visionary, in one of his books, mentioned that Buddhism will be the only religion that will survive by the year 2050 and that scientist cannot hammer it down or destroy it.

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[Zom]

How many monastics is Western Theravāda producing? IMO that is the question.

Exactly. I don't see Theravada is growing somewhere in the western world. There is some interest, but people don't integrate it into their lives as a religion. In most cases all serious financial support to buddhist centers, temples, monasteries in the West comes from asians, not from westerners.

McMindfulness is growing, yes. But this is not Theravada.

[budo]

From what I've seen from the Pragmatic Dharma movement, people will meditate and hijack Buddhism and mix it with non-duality and other new age ideologies. They will quote Zen monks saying that "theory" is useless. They will call anyone who reads and follows the dhamma (4 nikayas) religious fanatics.

This isn't Buddhism growing in the west, it's New Age Atheism, like Osho tried to do in the past. They will claim to be scientific by being atheists, but they will be blind to their own new age melting pot of a belief system. Of course their tendencies haven't been eradicated, so they will still be violent and angry people.

[Manopubbangama]

From what I've seen from the Pragmatic Dharma movement, people will meditate and hijack Buddhism and mix it with non-duality and other new age ideologies. They will quote Zen monks saying that "theory" is useless. They will call anyone who reads and follows the dhamma (4 nikayas) religious fanatics.

This isn't Buddhism growing in the west, it's New Age Atheism, like Osho tried to do in the past. They will claim to be scientific by being atheists, but they will be blind to their own new age melting pot of a belief system.

Bingo.

This is why I stay around as few "western buddhists" as possible, really only a few that I trust, and largely stay with the living tradition of Burmese buddhism which is not only more intellectually-diligent but more honest, as well.

When the new age manure is washed away from the street, Buddhism, as practiced by the Buddha will be alive and well in Burma.

[Circle5]

This is why I stay around as few "western buddhists" as possible, really only a few that I trust, and largely stay with the living tradition of Burmese buddhism which is not only more intellectually-diligent but more honest, as well.

When the new age manure is washed away from the street, Buddhism, as practiced by the Buddha will be alive and well in Burma.

Burma is, sadly, an african country. It's actually less developed in every possible aspect (economically, politically, etc.) than most of african countries. Religion in such countries, at least at the mass scale, is primitive, rigid and superstitious. In such poor countries, religion usually takes the lowest of the lowest form possible. Therevada is also an othodox religion and is basically identical in it's mass form to orthodox christianity. All that you have bad with othodox christianity (extreme rigidiness of mind, dogmatism, herd-mentality, blessing of cars, magica amulets and objects, priests being half-mobsters, etc.) is happening at bigger scale in Bruma due to being an african country.

I would not compare the mass religion forms of buddhism in the west with the mass religion forms of an african country like Burma. You can compare it with Thailand, but not with Burma.

[Manopubbangama]

This is why I stay around as few "western buddhists" as possible, really only a few that I trust, and largely stay with the living tradition of Burmese buddhism which is not only more intellectually-diligent but more honest, as well.

When the new age manure is washed away from the street, Buddhism, as practiced by the Buddha will be alive and well in Burma.

Burma is, sadly, an african country. It's actually less developed in every possible aspect (economically, politically, etc.) than most of african countries. Religion in such countries, at least at the mass scale, is primitive, rigid and superstitious. In such poor countries, religion usually takes the lowest of the lowest form possible. Therevada is also an othodox religion and is basically identical in it's mass form to orthodox christianity. All that you have bad with othodox christianity (extreme rigidiness of mind, dogmatism, herd-mentality, blessing of cars, magica amulets and objects, priests being half-mobsters, etc.) is happening at bigger scale in Bruma due to being an african country.

I would not compare the mass religion forms of buddhism in the west with the mass religion forms of an african country like Burma. You can compare it with Thailand, but not with Burma.

I get what you are saying and I agree with it to a large extent however I would say from my personal readings of the Sayadaws and interactions with Burmese monks that there are some absolutely amazing scholars that are developed in this country, especially Abhidhamma scholars.

Personally I would consider Burma to be not per se "Africa" but something like 16th Century Germany: completely filled with archaic superstitions, poverty, rigidness, cruelty, but also with sparkles of the most sublime scholarship in the world, I daresay, and I know I will get a lot of flack for this, much superior scholarship than Thailand. Just as Jacob Boehme is still remembered today, I believe Ledi Sayadaw will be quoted several hundred years from now.

I tried to say that as respectfully as I can, don't know exactly how it came out though.

[Garrib]

How many monastics is Western Theravāda producing? IMO that is the question. Mahāyāna is also actively growing in the West, but it is not producing practitioners who observe the vinaya at the rate at which it produces Buddha-devotees in the laity.

Is Western Theravāda producing vinaya adherents or a large mass of lay devotees? IMO that is the real question.

I agree with you - but don't you think you would need a strong base of lay supporters in order to sustain a monastic sangha? I think the notion of supporting spiritual recluses is somewhat foreign to many in the west.

I think it is growing - I think more will ordain. I am optimistic about the future.

[Bundokji]

I think it is growing - I think more will ordain. I am optimistic about the future.

I share your sentiment.

The following is what Arthur Schopenhauer predicted over a century ago:

We, on the contrary, now send the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers to set them right out of sympathy, and to show them that they are created out of nothing, and ought thankfully to rejoice in the fact. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet against a cliff. In India, our religions will never take root. The ancient wisdom of the human race will not be displaced by what happened in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian philosophy streams back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought.

[Manopubbangama]

I think it is growing - I think more will ordain. I am optimistic about the future.

I share your sentiment.

The following is what Arthur Schopenhauer predicted over a century ago:

We, on the contrary, now send the Brahmans English clergymen and evangelical linen-weavers to set them right out of sympathy, and to show them that they are created out of nothing, and ought thankfully to rejoice in the fact. But it is just the same as if we fired a bullet against a cliff. In India, our religions will never take root. The ancient wisdom of the human race will not be displaced by what happened in Galilee. On the contrary, Indian philosophy streams back to Europe, and will produce a fundamental change in our knowledge and thought.

Hopefully the stream will do better than Bollywood.

Because while Goa is Christ-ian, Europeans on vacation may eat curry and take selfies with corpses in the Ganges, thats about it for now.

That and Steve Jobs, but imo, they could have kept him in the subcontinent for all I care.

Plus the Christian god is a hardcore diety. I'f I'm wrong about man will I suffer.

[Bundokji]

Hopefully the stream will do better than Bollywood.

Because while Goa is Christ-ian, Europeans on vacation may eat curry and take selfies with corpses in the Ganges, thats about it for now.

That and Steve Jobs, but imo, they could have kept him in the subcontinent for all I care.

Plus the Christian god is a hardcore diety. I'f I'm wrong about man will I suffer.

Keen interest in Buddhism will always be limited to few in my opinion, but the conditions in the west seems to be ripe for it. The west became increasingly skillful in controlling the conditions and western societies are seen as individualistic societies. These two aspects, to me, seem to be the necessary conditions for taking Buddhism seriously. Controlling the conditions and having a manipulative relationship with the world may have made life more comfortable for the time being, but failed to answer the problem of suffering and created a vacuum and crisis in values which often take the form of hedonism. Individualism helps attract people to a religion that focuses on the individual such as Buddhism.

Buddhism offers a path to westerners that requires a minimum amount of believing in an age that looks down upon any metaphysical interpretation of the world. Post modernism is a kind of rebellion against any path which seems to be a natural outcome of the abovementioned conditions, and those who follow it can see that it is unsustainable and follow the Buddhist path instead. There are similarities between some Buddhist notions and post modern notions.

I remember Ajahn Chah saying once that wisdom comes out of suffering. Also in Buddhism, the lotus flower which symbolizes purity, beauty and wisdom comes out of the mud. The Buddha said:

Upon a heap of rubbish in the road-side ditch blooms a lotus, fragrant and pleasing

Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom.

All the westerners on this forum who describe this age as corrupt and degrading seem to be using the Buddhist lenses to reach their conclusions, and at the same time, they are an outcome of the same culture they are criticizing. Maybe they are unable to see the link between conditions in their culture and their own interest in Buddhism.