How does the self view arises ?

[sentinel]

Are we born with self view ? If not why ? When does it arises ? How does the mind give rise to self view ?

[SarathW]

In Dependent Origination Bhava means the self-identification.
So Upatdana is the cause of Bhava (self-view)

[sentinel]

In Dependent Origination Bhava means the self-identification.
So Upatdana is the cause of Bhava (self-view)

Any text support bhava as self view ?

[form]

I wonder if there is a theravada answer to this question other than this is dukka and arise from contact.

[SarathW]

There is a Sutta about the cause of ignorance.
So that will be the same reason for the arising of self-view.

[pegembara]

Answers when, not how.

Regarding the studies of children and mirrors, here is how Stern describes what happens to a child at around 18 months:

Prior to the age of eighteen months, infants do not seem to know that what they are seeing in a mirror is their own reflection. After eighteen months, they do. This can be shown by surreptitiously marking infants’ faces with rouge, so that they are unaware that the mark has been placed. When younger infants see their reflections, they point to the mirror and not to themselves. After the age of eighteen months or so, they touch the rouge on their own faces instead of just pointing to the mirror.

The well-known psychoanalyst John Gedo, M.D., put it this way: “Self-awareness is only achieved toward the end of the second year of life, in parallel with the acquisition of verbal communication.” He further elaborated on this theme of language and self-awareness by commenting on the significance of putting words into feelings: “At this stage, children also become capable of learning a system of symbols for the affects; as a result, they are enabled to achieve emotional self-awareness.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -awareness

Possible answer to how ie. grasping

"It is with dependence, friend ânanda, that the notion `am' oc­curs, not without dependence. With dependence on what, does the notion `am' occur, and not without dependence? With dependence on form does the notion `am' occur, not without de­pendence; with de­pendence on feeling does the notion `am' oc­cur, not without depend­ence; with dependence on perception does the notion `am' occur, not without dependence; with de­pendence on preparations does the no­tion `am' occur, not with­out dependence; with dependence on con­sciousness does the notion `am' occur, not without dependence.

The subsequent illustration serves to bring out the required nu­ance of the term upàdàya, which is more often connected with the rather gross idea of grasping. The young woman or the young man is looking at her or his face in a mirror. They can see their own face, or the sign of it, mukhanimitta, only with the help of a mirror, that is, as an image reflected on it. They are de­pendent on a mirror or a similar object for seeing their own face, not independent.

What Venerable Puõõa Mantàõiputta seems to stress, is that the notion `am' is the result of grasping or holding on to form, feeling, perception, preparations, and consciousness. It is when one looks into a mirror that one suddenly becomes self-con­scious. Whether one has a liking or a dislike for what one sees, one gets the notion `this is me'. So it is by coming close to a mir­ror which reflects one's facial image that the notion `am' occurs depending on it. The word upà­dàya therefore approximates to the idea of coming close and holding on to.

That notion occurs due to a relationship arising from that holding on. Even if one already has no such notion, the moment one looks into a mirror one is suddenly reminded of it, as if to exclaim: "Ah, here I am!" This is the gist of what Venerable Puõ­õa Mantàõiputta is trying to put across through this dis­course.

This shows that the conceit `am' arises due to the five grasp­ing groups. The absolutive upàdàya, though akin to upàdàna, has a deeper significance. It is a word suggestive of a relation­ship. It does not merely mean a holding on, but also a certain necessary relation­ship arising out of that holding on. Just as the looking into a mirror or a bowl of water gives rise to a facial im­age as a reflection, here too the relationship calls forth the de­luded reflection "here I am". Given the notion "here I am", there follows the corollary "things that are mine".

http://www.meditation2.net/htdocs/Books ... mon_10.htm

All this comes about due to the ignorance that name-and-form is only a reflection, like that facial image.

No 'thinker' without thoughts
No 'experiencer' without the experience
No subject without the object.

[Srilankaputra]

How exactly it arises cannot be understood by the human mind. Just like a fire that is burning what exactly is going on cant be modelled exactly even by a super computer. But it is possible to say depended on fuel, air, and heat fire is kept burning. Similarly dependant on the five clung to aggregates( upadana khanda) self view arises.

IMO.

[sentinel]

No 'thinker' without thoughts
No 'experiencer' without the experience
No subject without the object.

This is what I understand how self arises , actually only thoughts arises and the continuity by linking one thought with another thought making series of thoughts as thinking in the process , later on in the processes it created a center which is a delusion and by it the sense of self arises . The fact is , self or the sense of being is but only a kind of feeling arises due to contact .

[cappuccino]

everyone treats you as if you're a person

you know your familiar thoughts, feelings, behavior

you exist, or

are you just another tree, in the wild forest

[retrofuturist]

Greetings James,

Are we born with self view ? If not why ? When does it arises ? How does the mind give rise to self view ?

Paticcasamuppada (if understood in keeping with the type of explanations from vens. Nanananda, Nanavira et.al.) explains this in great depth and precision.

I could explain it as I see it, but I've done so too many times with people holding fixed views who simply want to cling to, reaffirm and defend their existing views - thus my inclination to speak on such matters is minimal. If you are interested, I'll search for an old conversation - if not, that's fine too.

Metta,
Paul.

[cappuccino]

the forest is empty, under the empty sky

I look for company, but

the world is empty

[chownah]

One way to see the gradual emergence of a sense of self is to spend time every day (or as often as is possible) with a newborn baby and watch carefully for things the baby does as it experiences its surroundings and reacts to it.....do this for a couple of years or so....
chownah

[sentinel]

Greetings James,

Are we born with self view ? If not why ? When does it arises ? How does the mind give rise to self view ?

Paticcasamuppada (if understood in keeping with the type of explanations from vens. Nanananda, Nanavira et.al.) explains this in great depth and precision.

I could explain it as I see it, but I've done so too many times with people holding fixed views who simply want to cling to, reaffirm and defend their existing views - thus my inclination to speak on such matters is minimal. If you are interested, I'll search for an old conversation - if not, that's fine too.

Metta,
Paul.

Thanks retro, I wonder if you could summarise and also provide me the said link. Much appreciated .

[retrofuturist]

Greetings James,

Thanks retro, I wonder if you could summarise and also provide me the said link. Much appreciated .

I did a search and couldn't find anything that explained it end-to-end, but this post (and the topic it is in) should give you an understanding of my way of seeing.

Metta,
Paul.

[one_awakening]

I think when a baby is first born it doesn't have the intelligence to form a self view. Once it develops enough intelligence, the view of self kicks in.