How does the self view arises ?

[sentinel]

Greetings James,

Thanks retro, I wonder if you could summarise and also provide me the said link. Much appreciated .

I did a search and couldn't find anything that explained it end-to-end, but this post (and the topic it is in) should give you an understanding of my way of seeing.

Metta,
Paul.

Hi again , I see, isn't that is something similar to "mind only" school ? And isn't that the experience that arises when sense bases and objects meets
Not necessarily give rise to sense of self or self view ?
When an arahant abandoned ignorance and subsequently ending d suffering . Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

[Bundokji]

I find the function of self view through an evolutionary explanation to be convincing and inline with my personal observations.

Self view seem to be more developed in homo sapiens than other animals. When you examine what we can do and what other animals cannot, you would see why humans are the most dominant beings (in certain aspects) we know of on this planet.

Firstly, self view enabled us to organize ourselves as groups better than other animals. We created societies and civilizations through assigning roles to different individuals within the group, and by doing so, we complement each others needs. Also self view made us more skillful in inventing and utilizing tools. Without self view and our ability to conceptualize, a sense of morality and notions of right and wrong wont arise. Self view is also enabled us to connect separate phenomena through cause and effect and to have higher degree of control over our environment. We are no longer held hostage to the change in conditions but we know how to manipulate conditions in a way that satisfy our needs.

Because of self view, humans have the chance to liberate themselves from suffering. Without our ability to conceptualize we wont be able to foresee the future and to know that we are going to die. Because self view does not allow room for contradictions, it becomes the main driving force behind the practice, trying to solve the paradoxes of life as experienced by the average human being.

In a conditioned phenomena, everything comes at an expense. While self view has many positives linked to survival and the propagation of the species, it has its downsides specially through rigidity. Self view is self-fulfilling, hence it always seeks to confirm itself. This manifests itself into the tendency of clinging and forming habits. Therefore, self view is both the problem and the solution.

I think one of the major difficulties in the practice is to have a balanced view. In Buddhist circles, it seems natural to talk about self view almost always with negative connotations because this is what the average practitioner needs to hear. However, this seems to result in a lot of eccentricities and weird behavior among many practitioners. It seems very easy to go astray and running into excesses. I would even say that its better to remain sane and try to use conventional reality as properly as possible than thinking in terms of the ultimate and dismissing the conventional as delusional without appropriate understanding of how things go wrong.

In my view, one of the main differences between a liberated human being and an average one is the extent to which each uses conventional reality skillfully, in a way that do not lead to suffering to the individual and the other. This is the whole point of the practice according to my understanding.

[chownah]

........
...... Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

Here is an idea....if it doesn't work for you then just forget it:
An arahanat still has mental fabarications but they are empty of any traces of the illusional self...that is to say that an arahant's mental fabrications are not conditioned by any mental process which refers to a sense of self. Put another way: the experiential paradigm for a worldling is saturated with, dependent upon, conditioned by the concept of self while the experientital paradigm of an arahant is devoid of anything having to do with the concept of self (except for to avoid walking in front of a moving vehicle .....cows however seem to pose some special risk ).
chownah

[sentinel]

........
...... Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

Here is an idea....if it doesn't work for you then just forget it:
An arahanat still has mental fabarications but they are empty of any traces of the illusional self...that is to say that an arahant's mental fabrications are not conditioned by any mental process which refers to a sense of self. Put another way: the experiential paradigm for a worldling is saturated with, dependent upon, conditioned by the concept of self while the experientital paradigm of an arahant is devoid of anything having to do with the concept of self (except for to avoid walking in front of a moving vehicle .....cows however seem to pose some special risk ).
chownah

For practicality and better understanding ,

Does avoiding being attack by someone is out of reflex or self ?
If possible , can you describe what is the self ?

For an arahant devoid of self , say if confront with an IS whom want to kill him /her , and decapitation is about to take place , would arahant try to escape ?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings James,

Hi again , I see, isn't that is something similar to "mind only" school ?

I wouldn't know, sorry, Vajrayana doesn't interest me.

And isn't that the experience that arises when sense bases and objects meets
Not necessarily give rise to sense of self or self view ?

To my point, the fact you have already bifurcated a sense base and an object means you're already on the way to creating a self.

When an arahant abandoned ignorance and subsequently ending d suffering . Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

By bringing about the cessation of avijja... It's paticcasamuppada in cessation mode.

Metta,
Paul.

[chownah]

........
...... Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

Here is an idea....if it doesn't work for you then just forget it:
An arahanat still has mental fabarications but they are empty of any traces of the illusional self...that is to say that an arahant's mental fabrications are not conditioned by any mental process which refers to a sense of self. Put another way: the experiential paradigm for a worldling is saturated with, dependent upon, conditioned by the concept of self while the experientital paradigm of an arahant is devoid of anything having to do with the concept of self (except for to avoid walking in front of a moving vehicle .....cows however seem to pose some special risk ).
chownah

For practicality and better understanding ,

Does avoiding being attack by someone is out of reflex or self ?
If possible , can you describe what is the self ?

For an arahant devoid of self , say if confront with an IS whom want to kill him /her , and decapitation is about to take place , would arahant try to escape ?

I really don't think that answering those questions lead to a practical benefit in discerning and following the path and I really don't think that answering those questions will lead to a better understanding of anything one will encounter while discerning and following the path.....also, I don't think that it is possible for someone who indulges in the false sense of self to "understand" what it is like be an arahant....a total waste of time....better to spend the time in a secluded place with legs crossed.

Does it matter if an arahant would avoid dieing?....it probaby wouldn't matter to the arahant one way or the other(I'm guessing...are you wanting an answer which is not a guess?...good luck getting it)....in either case the arahant would not suffer for whichever path she took. If it is a non-issue for an arahant what happens to her then why should it matter to you? Are you worried that if you become an arahant that you will not be able to defend yourself from some ninja attack?
chownah

[sentinel]

Greetings James,

Hi again , I see, isn't that is something similar to "mind only" school ?

I wouldn't know, sorry, Vajrayana doesn't interest me.

And isn't that the experience that arises when sense bases and objects meets
Not necessarily give rise to sense of self or self view ?

To my point, the fact you have already bifurcated a sense base and an object means you're already on the way to creating a self.

When an arahant abandoned ignorance and subsequently ending d suffering . Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

By bringing about the cessation of avijja... It's paticcasamuppada in cessation mode.

Metta,
Paul.

I get the point if sense base and object for ordinary people being differentiate and turn to self but for arahant while still alive have their sense base in contact with object do give rise to experience and in that experience no differentiation between sense base and object ?

[sentinel]

Here is an idea....if it doesn't work for you then just forget it:
An arahanat still has mental fabarications but they are empty of any traces of the illusional self...that is to say that an arahant's mental fabrications are not conditioned by any mental process which refers to a sense of self. Put another way: the experiential paradigm for a worldling is saturated with, dependent upon, conditioned by the concept of self while the experientital paradigm of an arahant is devoid of anything having to do with the concept of self (except for to avoid walking in front of a moving vehicle .....cows however seem to pose some special risk ).
chownah

For practicality and better understanding ,

Does avoiding being attack by someone is out of reflex or self ?
If possible , can you describe what is the self ?

For an arahant devoid of self , say if confront with an IS whom want to kill him /her , and decapitation is about to take place , would arahant try to escape ?

I really don't think that answering those questions lead to a practical benefit in discerning and following the path and I really don't think that answering those questions will lead to a better understanding of anything one will encounter while discerning and following the path.....also, I don't think that it is possible for someone who indulges in the false sense of self to "understand" what it is like be an arahant....a total waste of time....better to spend the time in a secluded place with legs crossed.

Does it matter if an arahant would avoid dieing?....it probaby wouldn't matter to the arahant one way or the other(I'm guessing...are you wanting an answer which is not a guess?...good luck getting it)....in either case the arahant would not suffer for whichever path she took. If it is a non-issue for an arahant what happens to her then why should it matter to you? Are you worried that if you become an arahant that you will not be able to defend yourself from some ninja attack?
chownah

So, according to your statement above arahant still has mental fabrication , but , I read in text after cessation of ignorance , Following is cessation of mental fabrication , that is why later I asked some questions

Of course , practising is more practical than trying to understand through asking questions , but , what is the purpose of this forum then ? And if this is a wasting time discussion , then why all members are doing the same ? Shall we all now go meditate in secluded place ?

Well , I am trying to grasp what is natural reflex and what is defending with a self .

Why are you upsetting ? No?

[chownah]

For practicality and better understanding ,

Does avoiding being attack by someone is out of reflex or self ?
If possible , can you describe what is the self ?

For an arahant devoid of self , say if confront with an IS whom want to kill him /her , and decapitation is about to take place , would arahant try to escape ?

I really don't think that answering those questions lead to a practical benefit in discerning and following the path and I really don't think that answering those questions will lead to a better understanding of anything one will encounter while discerning and following the path.....also, I don't think that it is possible for someone who indulges in the false sense of self to "understand" what it is like be an arahant....a total waste of time....better to spend the time in a secluded place with legs crossed.

Does it matter if an arahant would avoid dieing?....it probaby wouldn't matter to the arahant one way or the other(I'm guessing...are you wanting an answer which is not a guess?...good luck getting it)....in either case the arahant would not suffer for whichever path she took. If it is a non-issue for an arahant what happens to her then why should it matter to you? Are you worried that if you become an arahant that you will not be able to defend yourself from some ninja attack?
chownah

So, according to your statement above arahant still has mental fabrication , but , I read in text after cessation of ignorance , Following is cessation of mental fabrication , that is why later I asked some questions

Of course , practising is more practical than trying to understand through asking questions , but , what is the purpose of this forum then ? And if this is a wasting time discussion , then why all members are doing the same ? Shall we all now go meditate in secluded place ?

Well , I am trying to grasp what is natural reflex and what is defending with a self .

Why are you upsetting ? No?

I am not upset and I hope that you are not upset.

I can not answer your questions for you.....I think each individual must answer these questions for themselves.

I think that defending with a self IS a natural reflex....so my view is quite different from yours I think...I think you are saying that defending with a self is not a natural reflex but please tell me if I am just misunderstanding you.
chownah

[retrofuturist]

Greetings James,

...but for arahant while still alive have their sense base in contact with object do give rise to experience and in that experience no differentiation between sense base and object ?

You're speaking here of "sense bases" and "objects" as if they're distinct, actual, extant things. While you do that, you're effectively super-imposing your own avijja into the scenario.

Anyway, that's just my take, explained - no obligation to agree, or see it as I do.

Metta,
Paul.

[form]

Greetings James,

Thanks retro, I wonder if you could summarise and also provide me the said link. Much appreciated .

I did a search and couldn't find anything that explained it end-to-end, but this post (and the topic it is in) should give you an understanding of my way of seeing.

Metta,
Paul.

Hi again , I see, isn't that is something similar to "mind only" school ? And isn't that the experience that arises when sense bases and objects meets
Not necessarily give rise to sense of self or self view ?
When an arahant abandoned ignorance and subsequently ending d suffering . Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

Due to old karma, arahats do not create new karma. Nibanna when alive and after death has some difference. There are terms for them, but i dun remember exactly.

[form]

........
...... Yet, an arahant still experiencing form sound odour taste touch mental objects ie mental fabrication , as such how does arahant said to be in Nibbana while still alive ?

Here is an idea....if it doesn't work for you then just forget it:
An arahanat still has mental fabarications but they are empty of any traces of the illusional self...that is to say that an arahant's mental fabrications are not conditioned by any mental process which refers to a sense of self. Put another way: the experiential paradigm for a worldling is saturated with, dependent upon, conditioned by the concept of self while the experientital paradigm of an arahant is devoid of anything having to do with the concept of self (except for to avoid walking in front of a moving vehicle .....cows however seem to pose some special risk ).
chownah

For practicality and better understanding ,

Does avoiding being attack by someone is out of reflex or self ?
If possible , can you describe what is the self ?

For an arahant devoid of self , say if confront with an IS whom want to kill him /her , and decapitation is about to take place , would arahant try to escape ?

On one hand the Buddha ever mentioned if one is severely punished by an enemy like cutting off the limbs, one should bear with it patiently. On the other hand, moggallana before his death, he used psychic powers to escape a few times till he failed and was beaten to death.

[sentinel]

I think that defending with a self IS a natural reflex....
chownah

I see your view

[sentinel]

Greetings James,

...but for arahant while still alive have their sense base in contact with object do give rise to experience and in that experience no differentiation between sense base and object ?

You're speaking here of "sense bases" and "objects" as if they're distinct, actual, extant things. While you do that, you're effectively super-imposing your own avijja into the scenario.

Anyway, that's just my take, explained - no obligation to agree, or see it as I do.

Metta,
Paul.

I get what you mean .
Thanks

[User1249x]

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle- ... nkya-sutta
“But, Mālunkyāputta, in what way do you remember the five lower fetters as taught by me?”
“Venerable sir, I remember identity view as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember doubt as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember adherence to rules and observances as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember sensual desire as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember ill will as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. It is in this way, venerable sir, that I remember the five lower fetters as taught by the Blessed One.”
3. “Mālunkyāputta, to whom do you remember my having taught these five lower fetters in that way? Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ [433] so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him. Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with this simile of the infant?”
4. Thereupon, the venerable Ānanda said: “It is the time, Blessed One, it is the time, Sublime One, for the Blessed One to teach the five lower fetters. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the bhikkhus will remember it.”
“Then listen, Ānanda, and attend closely to what I shall say.”
“Yes, venerable sir,” the venerable Ānanda replied.
The Blessed One said this:
5. “Here, Ānanda, an untaught ordinary person who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, abides with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view; and when that identity view has become habitual and is uneradicated in him, it is a lower fetter. He abides with a mind obsessed and enslaved by doubt … by adherence to rules and observances … by sensual lust [434] … by ill will, and he does not understand as it actually is the escape from arisen ill will; and when that ill will has become habitual and is uneradicated in him, it is a lower fetter.
6. “A well-taught noble disciple who has regard for noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who has regard for true men and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by identity view; he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen identity view, and identity view together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him. He does not abide with a mind obsessed and enslaved by doubt … by adherence to rules and observances … by sensual lust … by ill will; he understands as it actually is the escape from the arisen ill will, and ill will together with the underlying tendency to it is abandoned in him.