Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

1)Yes
11
61%
2)No
4
22%
3)Don't KNow
3
17%
 
Total votes: 18

SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?
Ven. Buddhaparayana is a strong advocator of the DO in a single thought moment.
That is Dukkha arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) instantly.
The video is in Sinhalese language.
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

I voted Yes.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by sentinel »

If you explanation of dependent origination is different model , then it could be otherwise .
You always gain by giving
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I assume you mean "thought moment" in an Abhidhammic context, and as such, I can't answer your poll because I don't subscribe to that notion.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

No. I do not mean in Abhihamma context of millions of thought moment per second.
Just observing in terms of Satipathana.

Read the following discussion for further details.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33375
Last edited by SarathW on Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by pegembara »

'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,'

Seen here and now is not the same as at this thought moment. It means what it says literally.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pegembara wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,'

Seen here and now is not the same as at this thought moment. It means what it says literally.
:goodpost:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by DooDoot »

I voted 'No'. I can't imagine how all twelve conditions could arise in one thought moment. For example, if we take one thought moment to equal one word, it would take two thought moments to merely generate the idea of "I am" merely for the one nidana of attachment (upadana) to arise.

"I" = one thought moment

"am" = a 2nd thought moment

"this" = a 3rd thought moment

"disciple of Ven. Buddhaparayana" = four more thought moments or 7 thought moments in total

:alien:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 am, edited 6 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

pegembara wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:39 am 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,'

Seen here and now is not the same as at this thought moment. It means what it says literally.
Agree.
However this "here and now" could be one second or lower, sixty second, a day or the lifetime it depends on your concentration.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:56 am I voted 'No'. I can't imagine how all twelve conditions could arise in one thought moment.
Agree.
But it does not stop you observing it from beginning to the end.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:03 amBut it does not stop you observing it from beginning to the end.
What does beginning to the end have to do with Dependent Origination? Been reading Nagarjuna again?

Paticcasummupada = dependent-co-arising = 12 conditions resulting in sorrow, lamentation, grief & despair

You seem to be mixing up Paticcasummupada with Anicca (impermanence)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by sentinel »

Say if the liberation process is you abandon ignorance first , follow by uprooting sankhara which is self view , you still haven't destroyed the craving (greed & hatred) , how is it possible to see it all in one step and in one moment ? Not possible .
You always gain by giving
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SarathW »

James Tan wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:06 am Say if the liberation process is you abandon ignorance first , follow by uprooting sankhara which is self view , you still haven't destroyed the craving (greed & hatred) , how is it possible to see it all in one step and in one moment ? Not possible .
When you see DO you do not have the craving and ignorance.
Because you just only seen, hear etc. (Bahiya Sutta)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:18 amWhen you see DO you do not have the craving and ignorance.
Its seems DO must have ignorance & craving in it.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:18 amBecause you just only seen, hear etc. (Bahiya Sutta)
This seems to be called "Cessation" rather than "Origination; i.e, "DC" rather than "DO".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Can you see Dependent Origination instantly at this (thought) moment?

Post by SDC »

The idea that it can be "seen" will likely presuppose that it is an observable phenomena in the classic sense: that it appears directly in some stream of thinking. The dependency in DO/PS is implied, it can be known by virtue of the nature of arisen phenomena. In other words, the relationship/dependency endures as long as ignorance remains (avijjā paccayā sankhārā being the most fundamental of all the pairs of PS/DO). Dependency of that sort does not appear directly in a stream of thoughts: the subtle but profound significance implied with the presence of that stream - any stream, thinking in general, or even just presence in general - is one dependent upon ignorance and vice versa, i.e. that it is "my" stream. That is what matters in the context of DO/PS. Moments are beside this point.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Post Reply