Hi
This is about self-control on all levels, but something occurred to me.
I find that I can somewhat - with difficulty and striving, doubtless -control my emotions like anger, lust, etc.
But thoughts continue to outsmart me, if you know what I mean. I may lose myself in certain ideas, or daydream, or indulge in inner monologue etc.
My point here is, while it's relatively easier for me to exert some degree of control over my emotions, I find myself somewhat helpless when it comes to thoughts.
Did the Buddha or any Buddhist, for that matter, make a distinction between thought and emotion? do we follow different methods for controlling them?
EDIT: When it comes to emotion, I can see it from a distance, so to speak, and immediately control it, so that it doesn't overwhelm me. But with thoughts, I am not able to do it.
Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Good question. In MN 19 (called 'Two Types of Thought'), the Buddha-To-Be used a more skilful type of thought to control & overcome emotion. Therefore, thought appears to be different to emotion. Note: I think MN 19 is very pertinent to this topic.
This said, thought appears to be a dominant/controlling sense object that particularly upholds the sense of 'self' & 'subjective reality'. For example, if you truely believe you live in America, this 'reality' called 'America' is created by thought (rather than by the external world).
Therefore, even when more skilful thoughts can be used to remove less skilful thoughts & emotions, the more skilful thoughts pertaining to a more skilful 'self' generally remain in the mind. Thus thinking remains as the primary activity of the mind. Note: we should acknowledge the fact that the minds of most people, each day, are largely pre-occupied or dominated by thinking; however subtle this thinking may be.
While the following quote is very complex & may possibly overreach the scope of this topic, it appears to be about how 'thought' constructs subjective notions of 'being' or 'reality'.
This said, thought appears to be a dominant/controlling sense object that particularly upholds the sense of 'self' & 'subjective reality'. For example, if you truely believe you live in America, this 'reality' called 'America' is created by thought (rather than by the external world).
Therefore, even when more skilful thoughts can be used to remove less skilful thoughts & emotions, the more skilful thoughts pertaining to a more skilful 'self' generally remain in the mind. Thus thinking remains as the primary activity of the mind. Note: we should acknowledge the fact that the minds of most people, each day, are largely pre-occupied or dominated by thinking; however subtle this thinking may be.
While the following quote is very complex & may possibly overreach the scope of this topic, it appears to be about how 'thought' constructs subjective notions of 'being' or 'reality'.
Anyway, in conclusion, thought is generally held to be a higher mental faculty than emotion. Often, thought is called 'manas'; from which the Pali word for 'human' is derived from. In other words, animals are largely dictated by emotion where as 'humans' can be guided by thought. Complex thought, for the most part, is restricted to humans.And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Etymology 1
From Sanskrit मनस् (manas, “mind”).
Noun
manas (uncountable)
(philosophy, chiefly theosophy) The mind; that which distinguishes man from the animals.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manas
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:19 am, edited 7 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Emotions tends to lie deeper than thoughts. Controlling emotions may be driving it deeper. Chain of thoughts can be terminated or diverted or substituted or withstrained as the last resort was covered in a specific sutta.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about these defilements being stratified into three levels, latent, manifestation and transgression. He covered emotions and thoughts and explained how they manifested from contact. Look for it in his book eightfold path. He also explained how right view and intention can guide one towards wholesome direction by understanding and making a choice.
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote about these defilements being stratified into three levels, latent, manifestation and transgression. He covered emotions and thoughts and explained how they manifested from contact. Look for it in his book eightfold path. He also explained how right view and intention can guide one towards wholesome direction by understanding and making a choice.
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
It depends if there are serious hindrances arising, and action must be taken. This pre-enlightenment sutta when the mind was being cleansed, shows it is acceptable for mindfulness to vary depending on the state of the mind, but at a minimum some mindfulness must always be observed:
"Just as in the last month of the Rains, in the autumn season when the crops are ripening, a cowherd would look after his cows: He would tap & poke & check & curb them with a stick on this side & that. Why is that? Because he foresees flogging or imprisonment or a fine or public censure arising from that [if he let his cows wander into the crops]. In the same way I foresaw in unskillful qualities drawbacks, degradation, & defilement, and I foresaw in skillful qualities rewards related to renunciation & promoting cleansing.”
[…]
"Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.”—-MN 19
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
The best way to control negative anything is to focus on what you should be doing rather than what you shouldn't be doing.
Eg.
- i shouldn't eat this junk food
Vs
- let's cook steak and veggies
- I shouldn't think about porn
Vs
- Let's analyze the 4 noble truths
- I shouldn't feel upset
Vs
- let's meditate
The difference is the "shouldn't", puts attention on you as a person and it's not actionable so it doesn't lead to movement. Whereas the action is focused on what you're doing rather than you as a person.
Eg.
- i shouldn't eat this junk food
Vs
- let's cook steak and veggies
- I shouldn't think about porn
Vs
- Let's analyze the 4 noble truths
- I shouldn't feel upset
Vs
- let's meditate
The difference is the "shouldn't", puts attention on you as a person and it's not actionable so it doesn't lead to movement. Whereas the action is focused on what you're doing rather than you as a person.
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Present situation:
Your present skillset is not up to the task to protect yourself from thoughts outsmarting "you".
You have two choices:
1. Temporary protection through samadhi
2. Permanent protection through uprooting ignorance
Thoughts can't outsmart neither a mind with samadhi nor one with wisdom (= without ignorance), difference is the first solution is temporary, the second permanent.
One possible way
....
5. restrain your body and speech
6. replace unskillful thoughts with skillful ones
7. calm down the skillful thoughts
8. become aware of the mind
9. gladden him
10. calm him
11. Free him (end of samadhi)
12. perceive impermanence (beginning of vipassana)
13. perceive dispassion
14. perceive cessation
15. perceive Liberation (ignorance replaced by wisdom)
16. Job done.
Your present skillset is not up to the task to protect yourself from thoughts outsmarting "you".
You have two choices:
1. Temporary protection through samadhi
2. Permanent protection through uprooting ignorance
Thoughts can't outsmart neither a mind with samadhi nor one with wisdom (= without ignorance), difference is the first solution is temporary, the second permanent.
One possible way
....
5. restrain your body and speech
6. replace unskillful thoughts with skillful ones
7. calm down the skillful thoughts
8. become aware of the mind
9. gladden him
10. calm him
11. Free him (end of samadhi)
12. perceive impermanence (beginning of vipassana)
13. perceive dispassion
14. perceive cessation
15. perceive Liberation (ignorance replaced by wisdom)
16. Job done.
Last edited by SkillfulA on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
nice one!budo wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:23 am The best way to control negative anything is to focus on what you should be doing rather than what you shouldn't be doing.
Eg.
- i shouldn't eat this junk food
Vs
- let's cook steak and veggies
- I shouldn't think about porn
Vs
- Let's analyze the 4 noble truths
- I shouldn't feel upset
Vs
- let's meditate
The difference is the "shouldn't", puts attention on you as a person and it's not actionable so it doesn't lead to movement. Whereas the action is focused on what you're doing rather than you as a person.
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
mastery to be attainedHe is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't.
MN 20
Vitakkasanthana Sutta:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!"
"Yes, lord," the monks replied.
The Blessed One said: "When a monk is intent on the heightened mind, there are five themes he should attend to at the appropriate times. Which five?
"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme, he should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a young woman — or man — fond of adornment, would be horrified, humiliated, and disgusted if the carcass of a snake or a dog or a human being were hung from her neck; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to this other theme, connected with what is skillful, he should scrutinize the drawbacks of those thoughts: 'Truly, these thoughts of mine are unskillful, these thoughts of mine are blameworthy, these thoughts of mine result in stress.' As he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, he should pay no mind and pay no attention to those thoughts. As he is paying no mind and paying no attention to them, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a man with good eyes, not wanting to see forms that had come into range, would close his eyes or look away; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts, he should pay no mind and pay no attention to those thoughts. As he is paying no mind and paying no attention to them, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts, he should attend to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts. As he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as the thought would occur to a man walking quickly, 'Why am I walking quickly? Why don't I walk slowly?' So he walks slowly. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I walking slowly? Why don't I stand?' So he stands. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I standing? Why don't I sit down?' So he sits down. The thought occurs to him, 'Why am I sitting? Why don't I lie down?' So he lies down. In this way, giving up the grosser posture, he takes up the more refined one. In the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts, he should attend to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts. As he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
"If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a strong man, seizing a weaker man by the head or the throat or the shoulders, would beat him down, constrain, and crush him; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness. As — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he is beating down, constraining, and crushing his mind with his awareness, those evil, unskillful thoughts are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.
"Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
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Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Two things i find extremely effective in managing thought. Remembrance of the Buddha and mindfulness of the body.
Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
Hi Alfa,
My understanding of the Buddhist teaching is that it isn't about controlling your emotions or thoughts.
But just being aware that emotions and thoughts are arising. When you see repeatedly that emotions and thoughts
are arising and passing away moment to moment, you get wisdom and you are no longer so strong in the grip of them.
Just my thoughts.
Zachary
My understanding of the Buddhist teaching is that it isn't about controlling your emotions or thoughts.
But just being aware that emotions and thoughts are arising. When you see repeatedly that emotions and thoughts
are arising and passing away moment to moment, you get wisdom and you are no longer so strong in the grip of them.
Just my thoughts.
Zachary
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Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
One of the ways I find pretty effective is to carry the object of meditation around as often as possible. For example, lining up 2hrs in DMV or supermarket, instead of daydreaming like 99% of the people there or go to iphone, one goes into breathing or loving-kindness as the meditation object while standing there. Do this long enough, the mind will start to "reprogram" itself. The thoughts become less and less in normal activities. It can be very peaceful while walking in chaotic traffic or facing a brutal boss, you can still be very calm. You may not be happy after a big scolding from the boss, but at least you are at peace.
If one keeps doing this for a couple of months, the sitting meditation becomes very stable and concentration is very easy (assuming one did not break the 5 precepts - not even squashing an insect). At that time, I don't think you need to control or suppress anything, as you will be very quick to notice any thoughts without much effort. The thoughts disappear by itself every time you notice it. - or you have the option to prolong it and notice without judgment. I let thoughts be sometimes and notice without getting involved- especially creative thoughts or thoughts of dhamma.
Well of course, it takes effort in the beginning but it will be easier as the mind "muscle" develop over time. Just my 2 cents.
If one keeps doing this for a couple of months, the sitting meditation becomes very stable and concentration is very easy (assuming one did not break the 5 precepts - not even squashing an insect). At that time, I don't think you need to control or suppress anything, as you will be very quick to notice any thoughts without much effort. The thoughts disappear by itself every time you notice it. - or you have the option to prolong it and notice without judgment. I let thoughts be sometimes and notice without getting involved- especially creative thoughts or thoughts of dhamma.
Well of course, it takes effort in the beginning but it will be easier as the mind "muscle" develop over time. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Controlling emotions vs controlling thoughts
The five precepts laid down for the lay is a means to control thoughts and emotions. The five precepts are in accordance with first five steps of noble eight fold path.Srilankaputra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:08 am Two things i find extremely effective in managing thought. Remembrance of the Buddha and mindfulness of the body.
A buddhist daily taking the oath of 5precepts startng with Namotassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddassa , is aware that we refrain from harming beings , refrain from stealing , lying, using wrong words or lying , refrain from wrong sex and alcohol, thus ensuring right (samma) thought and is assured of controlled thoughts and emotions.
This is also an answer to one who questions on daily practise of rituals as meditation etc.