Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by DooDoot »

SkillfulA wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:12 pmUnless we stop tanha, Dukkha will arise and cease again and again endlessly...
The Pali word "dukkha nirodha" does not appear to refer to a temporary decline in dukkha.
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release & letting go of that very craving.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
SkillfulA wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:12 pmWhen there is Dukkha Saumudaya there is always Dukkha Nirodha as well.
The above comment sounds ridiculous to me. My impression is 'dukkha nirodha' is a synonym for Nibbana. 'Dukkha nirodha' is said to be 'asesa'.
SkillfulA wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:12 pmCorrect. Whatever has the nature of arising has the nature of ceasing.
Possibly the quote you are paraphrasing from SN 56.11 might require examination & reappraisal.

:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by Manopubbangama »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:41 am Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
He did, but it's logically impossible that any "thing" could both arise and perish at the same time, which is what you're talking about, isn't it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Logically I don't think anything can occur "at the same time" especially dhammas that are causally related, however, given the speed of individual cittas, could it appear to occur virtually simultaneously? Such as a flash of insight that appears to contain both at the same time, where it could be confusing as to what came first, especially after remembering the event a few times?

This is a question for Paul.

And Sarath.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

It is important to remember what Dukkha means.
Five clinging-aggregate is Dukkha.
Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neutral feeling also Dukkha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 pmLogically I don't think anything can occur "at the same time" especially dhammas that are causally related, however, given the speed of individual cittas, could it appear to occur virtually simultaneously?
So when the minds of people are suffering so much, when they must visit a doctor and obtain medication or talk endlessly to their friends or even ponder suicide, the cittas are arising & passing with dukkha simultaneously? :|
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by SarathW »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:41 am Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
He did, but it's logically impossible that any "thing" could both arise and perish at the same time, which is what you're talking about, isn't it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Logically I don't think anything can occur "at the same time" especially dhammas that are causally related, however, given the speed of individual cittas, could it appear to occur virtually simultaneously? Such as a flash of insight that appears to contain both at the same time?
Agree.
See my previous post. The word "same time " was the wrong word choice.
:focus:
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 pm It is important to remember what Dukkha means.
There is an impression you don't know what dukkha means.
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 pmFive clinging-aggregate is Dukkha.
It seems the Buddha never taught about "clinging-aggregate". Instead, it seems the Buddha taught about "clung-to-aggregate". The clinging is dukkha.
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 pmPleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neutral feeling also Dukkha.
No, feelings do not appear to be the "clinging" dukkha. There are many suttas about experiencing feelings without dukkha.
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:01 pmAgree.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by Manopubbangama »

SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 pm
Pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, and neutral feeling also Dukkha.
Agree 100%.

Even experiencing the jhanas are dukkha, which is very counter-intuitive until we really consider the true nature of the jhanas.

Dukkha is the 12th Nidana of paticcasamupada.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:10 pmAgree 100%. Even the jhanas are dukkha, which is very counter-intuitive until we really consider the true nature of the jhanas.
If jhanas are the dukkha SarathW and your self are implying, why did the Buddha abide in jhanas? :roll: :shrug:
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:10 pmAgree 100%.
Too bad, because the suttas appear to thoroughly refute the above idea, as follows:
On seeing a form with the eye, he does not lust after it if it is pleasing; he does not dislike it if it is unpleasing. He abides with mindfulness of the body established, with an immeasurable mind, and he understands as it actually is the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom wherein those evil unwholesome states cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned favouring and opposing, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he does not delight in that feeling, welcome it, or remain holding to it. As he does not do so, delight in feelings ceases in him. With the cessation of his delight comes cessation of clinging; with the cessation of clinging, cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/bodhi
:alien:
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:10 pmDukkha is the 12th Nidana of paticcasamupada.
Aging & death is also the 12th Nidana of paticcasamupada. This type of "dukkha" appears to be the "dukkha" which is a sense of loss of what is clung to. Unrelated to feelings or jhana themselves, it seems. SN 12.66 says this dukkha has "acquisition" as its source:
As he explores he understands thus: ‘The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source, acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition. When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.’

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.66/en/bodhi
:alien:
SarathW wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:16 am Didn't Buddha say whatever subject to arising subject to perishing?
Probably not. Probably not in the manner you are inferring or intepretating.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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there arose in the venerable Kondañña the spotless, immaculate vision of the True Idea:
"Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation."
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:27 pm there arose in the venerable Kondañña the spotless, immaculate vision of the True Idea:
"Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation."
Are you sure what this quote really means?
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

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whatever arises, ceases
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manopubbangama,
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:57 pm Logically I don't think anything can occur "at the same time" especially dhammas that are causally related, however, given the speed of individual cittas, could it appear to occur virtually simultaneously? Such as a flash of insight that appears to contain both at the same time, where it could be confusing as to what came first, especially after remembering the event a few times?

This is a question for Paul.
You seem to be using the Abhidhammic dhamma model which I do not subscribe to, so my reply would likely be irrelevant to you.

In the meantime however, Sarath has clarified the meaning of his comment, and from my perspective, his clarification shall suffice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by Manopubbangama »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:29 pm my reply would likely be irrelevant to you.

Not in the least.

I would indeed like to read your response.
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:36 pm Not in the least.

I would indeed like to read your response.
I have a different understanding of what "dhammas" are, and it is primarily influenced by the works of ven's Nanavira & Nanananda.

To me (at least), their representations appear to be more in line with those of the suttas, than the Abhidhammic model is... but lest we send this topic too far off-topic, I'll leave it there for now.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is Dukka arises (Samudaya) and perishes (Nirodha) the same time?

Post by DooDoot »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:08 pmwhatever arises, ceases
SN 56.11 does not appear to say this. SN 56.11 appears to say:

1. Certain phenomena (craving, lust, delight, becoming, etc) result in the arising of dukkha.

2. When the noble eightfold path is practised, all of those certain phenomena resulting in the arising of dukkha will permanently cease without remainder; without ever arising again.

If dukkha ceased automatically, without a path of practise, it seems a path to end dukkha would not be required. It seems the Buddha would have taught 3 noble truths instead of 4 noble truths.

:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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