Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

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fornoxe
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Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:33 am

Hello everyone

My question will be about one simile. Make Love.

A monk must not make Love. He will be kick out from Shangha.

Why?

Because desire make your ego bigger. All senses door are open. And your mind eat all this information.
On this point of view, making love is bad for a monk.

Another thing is : if a monk want to make love to someone, if he push this idea, the feeling/nervosity will also bring karma. Something like that : I must not I must not . You see the I ? This I create right now a lot of pain. So to stop suffering...we suffer?

A monk make love (ok we don't take monk exemple anymore), someone make love. It is possible to make love without fill up your ego? If you stop making identification between your senses to something you call I, making love and what ever senses should not be a problem anymore?

Of course : if stop make identification between senses and so call I, do you want to make love...not sure...at all... But this is hypothetical.

If you see a woman as 32 parts of the body : asubha . It is not also against the reality. Reality is present. Reality is also annica. If you feel a woman is beautiful (as could be a beautiful car or a beautiful tree), can we just see a man or a woman as beautiful and not have desire? Can we want to make love if I does not exist anymore....

Of course making love is a biggest exemple, but a ice cream could be an another one.

Have a nice day

Ps : I did not have self sex since 1 months and half and I did not make love since few years. And I am good with that. Sex was just an exemple for you click on this topic. Yes sex still attract. ;)

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bridif1
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by bridif1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am

Hi!

As far as I understand, Buddhism is not about the "death of the ego".
Yes, there's the core doctrine of anattā, which can be translated as 'not-self'. But there's a lot more than just the experiencial realization of anattā.

Dukkha is another part (a huge one) of the Dhamma. Dukkha has multiple possible translations, but the one related and most useful to answer your question is 'unsatisfactoriness'.
To get rid of suffering and to eradicate its conditions, craving has to be extinguished. And 'craving' includes sensual craving (like sex or an ice cream), craving for existence, and craving for non-existence.

So, monks and nuns reclude themselves to focus on their training and to decrease the chances of sensorial temptations. And as you may see, sense restraint is not just because of the 'ego' (a word loaded with western psychology intepretations), but because dukkha itself and the cause of dukkha.

Have a nice day!

fornoxe
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm

Thank you for you reply.

On my own understanding, I see clearly dukkha is come from ego.

How dukkha can exist without I to feel it?

You have this link : sensation desire attachment and ego.

Buddhism say : remove sensation and you will remove your ego (and so dukkha). Like guard senses.

But I don't understand how guard can control senses doors without suffering? Why? Because guard are come from the I castle. So the castle create guard to remove the castle. Do you realize the meaning less ?

Or you can do that : remove castle by understanding how castle is make suffering the planet. No center where senses can go inside the doors senses.

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DooDoot
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 pm

bridif1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am
As far as I understand, Buddhism is not about the "death of the ego".
Buddhism does appear to teach about the "death of the ego". It seems to be called "marana"; the 12th condition of Dependent Origination. It results in sorrow & suffering. Note: If this is unclear, there is the sutta SN 22.81 about the "birth" of the "ego".
bridif1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am
Yes, there's the core doctrine of anattā, which can be translated as 'not-self'. But there's a lot more than just the experiencial realization of anattā.
Anattā appears similar to sunnata, which appears unambigously described as the absence of ego. Sunnatta, often translated as "voidness".
bridif1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am
Dukkha is another part (a huge one) of the Dhamma. Dukkha has multiple possible translations, but the one related and most useful to answer your question is 'unsatisfactoriness'.
Per certain translations, 'unsatisfactoriness' is only applicable to the 2nd of the Three Characteristics but not to the Four Noble Truths.
bridif1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am
To get rid of suffering and to eradicate its conditions, craving has to be extinguished. And 'craving' includes sensual craving (like sex or an ice cream), craving for existence, and craving for non-existence.
Sounds reasonable.
bridif1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:48 am
So, monks and nuns reclude themselves to focus on their training and to decrease the chances of sensorial temptations. And as you may see, sense restraint is not just because of the 'ego' (a word loaded with western psychology intepretations), but because dukkha itself and the cause of dukkha.
Sounds reasonable.
fornoxe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm
On my own understanding, I see clearly dukkha is come from ego.
This sounds true. But ego appears comes from craving, as follows:
There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication [of self] is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:candle:
fornoxe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm
You have this link : sensation desire attachment and ego.
Yes, this seems true.
fornoxe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm
Buddhism say : remove sensation and you will remove your ego (and so dukkha). Like guard senses.
Yes.
fornoxe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm
But I don't understand how guard can control senses doors without suffering? Why? Because guard are come from the I castle. So the castle create guard to remove the castle.
Dependent Origination appears to explain explain three types of "I" or "becoming", namely: (i) sensual becoming; (ii) form jhana becoming; and (iii) formless jhana becoming. A higher "I" can remove the lower sensual "I". The meditation jhana castle replaces the sensuality castle.

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

fornoxe
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:26 am

Can you refer from a sutta about your last sentence? For the 3 'I'

Because thats sound terrifictly unlogical.


___

When a monk say I must not do sex with a woman. He create suffering. It's against the Buddha teaching.
But a wisdom monk who see having sex with a woman will create suffering BECAUSE he still have a link between senses and intelligence.

99.99999% people have (as me) connection between senses and intelligence. Can they understand if we say desir is dukkha. Even I know that by experience I still have this clinging.
So I am a enlightment guy. A girl wants to make love with me. One think true, making love with her with not to see the truth of desir. So should I : "you desire for me is pain. Look deeply inside you and you will see this fact " . How do you think the girl will think? She is craving. So she will think : I am not good enough for him or something like that. She will not look inside her (example works also with enlightment woman of course). She will have pain and suffering. From an enlightment guy/girl. So even I am free from desire, free from ego, it will be not better to just give her physical pleasure. Even it's very superficial.

Rules are here to empeach you to think as a free person. I don't say what I wrote it's true, but think about what is the best without system who tell you how to live some very reasonable to me.

fornoxe
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:35 am

Can we be free of attachment to the form without following dhamma? Because dhamma make monks dull, with a lot of hierarchy, lot of craving (how many I saw say and practise against the dhamma? Racism, eat after mid day, stuck inside a thinking box who make them ego bigger and suffering (as eating after mid day because they have to follow order without understanding)) this is very very sad (I do my Trump).

I want a ascetism. But not issu from order but from realizing about freedom. I will not apply rules about thing I did not understanding! How can I understand making sex with a woman it's painful if (because a monk can me monk very early, I met some 10yo for example) if I can NOT practise sex. I must practise to see the pointless. is totally insane !!

chownah
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:43 am

Perhaps dhammicly it is better to just have sex than it is to make love.....making love tends to bring out the false sense of self alot more than just having sex I think.

Don't get me wrong....I am not advocating having sex or making love.....they both contain the danger of sensual delight and so I'll let people make up their own mind to what degree they want to confront that danger and will not advocate one way or the other.
chownah

NuanceOfSuchness
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by NuanceOfSuchness » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:43 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 pm
Dependent Origination appears to explain explain three types of "I" or "becoming", namely: (i) sensual becoming; (ii) form jhana becoming; and (iii) formless jhana becoming. A higher "I" can remove the lower sensual "I". The meditation jhana castle replaces the sensuality castle.

:smile:
Hi. Have you got any resources that point to this quote? Suttas or references?

Thank in advance. :-)

SarathW
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by SarathW » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:00 pm

fornoxe wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 pm
Thank you for you reply.

On my own understanding, I see clearly dukkha is come from ego.

How dukkha can exist without I to feel it?

You have this link : sensation desire attachment and ego.

Buddhism say : remove sensation and you will remove your ego (and so dukkha). Like guard senses.

But I don't understand how guard can control senses doors without suffering? Why? Because guard are come from the I castle. So the castle create guard to remove the castle. Do you realize the meaning less ?

Or you can do that : remove castle by understanding how castle is make suffering the planet. No center where senses can go inside the doors senses.
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:48 am

NuanceOfSuchness wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:43 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:09 pm
Dependent Origination appears to explain explain three types of "I" or "becoming", namely: (i) sensual becoming; (ii) form jhana becoming; and (iii) formless jhana becoming. A higher "I" can remove the lower sensual "I". The meditation jhana castle replaces the sensuality castle.

:smile:
Hi. Have you got any resources that point to this quote? Suttas or references?

Thank in advance. :-)
The above is a big ask! I will try to do my best according to how I personally interpret 'becoming' ('bhava') and also how a higher becoming can be used to abandon a lower becoming.

1. 'Becoming' is an 'asava' ("outflow") or 'mental defilement'', as follows:
There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. This is called fermentation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
2. 'Becoming' is the mind becoming 'fixated' or 'established' in a sense object, as follows:
Lord, this word, 'becoming, becoming' — to what extent is there becoming?

Ananda, if there were no kamma [intention; mental action] ripening in the sensuality-property... form-property... formless-property, would -becoming be discerned?

Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a ... property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
3. 'Becoming' is 'self-identification', as follows:
The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
4. Per AN 3.76 above and SN 12.2, there are three types of 'becoming' ('bhava'):
And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming & formless becoming. This is called becoming.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
5. Suttas such as AN 9.34 show how 'form' or 'jhana' (which can be an object of 'becoming') can be used to abandon attraction to sensuality, as follows:
Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
6. Similarly, AN 2.31 says:
When tranquillity (samatha) is developed, what purpose does it serve? The mind is developed. And when the mind is developed, what purpose does it serve? Passion [lust] is abandoned.

https://suttacentral.net/an2.21-31/en/thanissaro
7. Dhammapada 290 sums this up:
290. If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise man renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
I hope these quotes are sufficient. If not, ask further. In summary, even though the mind can attach to 'samatha' or 'jhana' with 'self-identification', the 'samatha' or 'jhana' can be used to abandon sensuality. :smile:

8. Also, the OP referred to the "castle" of "ego" or "I". This is well explained in SN 23.2, which defines the word "a being" ("satta"), which is very similar to "becoming" ("bhava"), as follows:
'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:06 am

best is to avoid looking at and talking to the opposite gender

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DooDoot
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:06 am
best is to avoid looking at and talking to the opposite gender
lol... i'm surrounded by & talk to half-naked 'women' ('sattānaṃ') in bikinis & G-strings all the time, generally twice per day. Only this morning I talked to two 'ladies' wearing bikinis. :meditate:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

fornoxe
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:07 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:06 am
best is to avoid looking at and talking to the opposite gender
So you create duality between you desire and your acting = suffering. Especially when a monk will be kick out if he have sex.

I say : we must look opposite gender to fell this desire. To understand it. Maybe making love. Until you understand the useless of that. At this point you can see someone without craving. And without create duality between you wish and what you want. No suffering here.

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DooDoot
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:10 am

fornoxe wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:07 am
Especially when a monk will be kick out if he have sex.
lol... when i lived in a monastery, the amount of women was even greater than now where i live near a beach... monks takes alms from women, give dhamma talks to women, give counselling to women... its very difficult for the modern monk to avoid women... :meditate:
fornoxe wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:07 am
I say : we must look opposite gender to fell this desire. To understand it.
Doing 'asuba' on a corpse is not different to doing 'asuba' on a nymph wearing a bikini. Its ironic how those preaching 'asuba' also preach 'avoidance'.
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

fornoxe
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Re: Making love or not making love : restraint senses or stop idenfication

Post by fornoxe » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:12 am

Doodoot : your interpretation not make sense for me. I don't say what you say does not have have any sense, but I don't understand. I don't fell that.

Did you ears that in any dhamma talk or from teacher?

Do you want to create your own topic to speak about that?

Thank you

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