Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

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SarathW
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Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by SarathW » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:52 am

Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Disciple
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by Disciple » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:09 am

Probably not.

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Bundokji
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by Bundokji » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:21 am

In theory, he/she should not as they ended self view. However, when i read Ven. Nanavira Thera's story, he seemed to be afraid of death even though he knew that he attained Sotapanna. What changed his mind, as i remember, is reading an article in a Newspaper in which an old English woman ended her life.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by Manopubbangama » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:21 am
In theory, he/she should not as they ended self view. However, when i read Ven. Nanavira Thera's story, he seemed to be afraid of death even though he knew that he attained Sotapanna. What changed his mind, as i remember, is reading an article in a Newspaper in which an old English woman ended her life.
Nanavira Thera's Dhamma-stamped, 1-way, 4-stop-flight-to-Nibanna ticket is not universally recognized, and is being discussed in other threads.

thepea
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:31 pm

The sotapanna has merely scratched the surface as far as cultivating sankharas. I’m sure there are plenty sankharas that can manifest as fear..

justindesilva
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:45 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:52 am
Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?
The fear of death is caused by having greed and desire.
A sotapanna is one who is not freed totally from greed & desire. Therefore a sotapanna is not free from fear of death.

santa100
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:07 pm

SarathW wrote:Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?
Even if one's not yet a Sotapanna, if s/he's read SN 55.22 and try their best to cultivate what the Buddha taught, then there should be no reason to fear death.

thepea
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:24 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:07 pm
SarathW wrote:Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?
Even if one's not yet a Sotapanna, if s/he's read SN 55.22 and try their best to cultivate what the Buddha taught, then there should be no reason to fear death.
So the cure to suffering is theoretical knowledge??

santa100
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:46 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:24 pm
santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:07 pm
SarathW wrote:Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?
Even if one's not yet a Sotapanna, if s/he's read SN 55.22 and try their best to cultivate what the Buddha taught, then there should be no reason to fear death.
So the cure to suffering is theoretical knowledge??
Read the post again. From SN 55.22, does "virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration" sound like theoretical knowledge?

thepea
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:48 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:46 pm
thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:24 pm
santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:07 pm

Even if one's not yet a Sotapanna, if s/he's read SN 55.22 and try their best to cultivate what the Buddha taught, then there should be no reason to fear death.
So the cure to suffering is theoretical knowledge??
Read the post again. From SN 55.22, does "virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration" sound like theoretical knowledge?
You are mistaken, the sotapanna has not eradicated attachment to form, they have merely glimpsed nibbana.
Although this is incredibly significant ie. tree is now leaning east and will inevitably fall east, it is not a cure to fear, in the hear and now. Much more work is still to be done cutting the ties that bind one to rebirth. Fear of death of form is still very much rooted in the sotapanna.

santa100
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:13 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:48 pm
You are mistaken, the sotapanna has not eradicated attachment to form, they have merely glimpsed nibbana.
Although this is incredibly significant ie. tree is now leaning east and will inevitably fall east, it is not a cure to fear, in the hear and now. Much more work is still to be done cutting the ties that bind one to rebirth. Fear of death of form is still very much rooted in the sotapanna.
But if there are heroes who are not Sotapannas, and yet are able to look straight at death in its face, whether in front of the firing squad or on the hanging platform, a Sotapanna should at least knows better and be better. Sotapannas are no cowards. Anyway, just some speculation on my side and you should admit it too, for neither of us are Sotapannas to be able to say anything for certain about them.

thepea
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:55 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:13 pm
But if there are heroes who are not Sotapannas, and yet are able to look straight at death in its face, whether in front of the firing squad or on the hanging platform, a Sotapanna should at least knows better and be better. Sotapannas are no cowards. Anyway, just some speculation on my side and you should admit it too, for neither of us are Sotapannas to be able to say anything for certain about them.
A sotapanna has eradicated the heavy karma which leads to rebirth in the lower fields, this individual has transcended the field of mind and body and glimpsed nibbana. They have not eradicated greed and hatred they have simply liberated past sankharas from these lower fields and possess the experiential wisdom to not take action that will produce sankharas of these fields ever again. Most people meditating as the Buddha taught can reach this stage quite quickly if the effort and continuous practice is put in.
How can you know the mind of an individual standing in front of a firing squad at that moment, or who is about to run into a burning building? Many people in situations like this resort to prayer or chanting which in essence creates a block from looking and feeling rising sankharas. In essence they are under hypnosis and for many if they survive the firing squad can develop in hatred and lower fields towards their abusers. Individuals who run into burning buildings may become overwhelmed by the sudden rise of sankharas and experience an adrenaline rush and react to this, which causes them to perform heroic acts that normally they would never do.
You seem to place sotapanna on a very high pedestal and anoint them with powers that may only be possessed by an anagami or arahant.
Sotapanna is defenitly no coward, they have looked deeply into truly miserable past trauma and had the courage to cultivate loving kindness toward this, but they are prone to blind reactivity and to be overwhelmed by these past traumas as they have not reached perfection in Parmis.

santa100
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:02 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:55 pm
You seem to place sotapanna on a very high pedestal and anoint them with powers that may only be possessed by an anagami or arahant.
Sotapanna is defenitly no coward, they have looked deeply into truly miserable past trauma and had the courage to cultivate loving kindness toward this, but they are prone to blind reactivity and to be overwhelmed by these past traumas as they have not reached perfection in Parmis.
And you seem to place them on the low ground and bastardize them with all the mediocrities. At least I'm being honest in making it clear that it's speculation on my side, while you never admit that for yourself. Why don't you admit that you, like me, are not Sotapannas and all your claims above are mere speculations? If neither you nor me can know for certain the state of mind of heroes facing their death by firing squad or hanging platform, how could you ever say anything for certain about the mind state of sotapannas?

thepea
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by thepea » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:38 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:02 pm
And you seem to place them on the low ground and bastardize them with all the mediocrities. At least I'm being honest in making it clear that it's speculation on my side, while you never admit that for yourself. Why don't you admit that you, like me, are not Sotapannas and all your claims above are mere speculations? If neither you nor me can know for certain the state of mind of heroes facing their death by firing squad or hanging platform, how could you ever say anything for certain about the mind state of sotapannas?
I certainly do not hold the view that individuals who have the courage to observe past trauma and cultivate loving kindness as low ground. Not sure why you feel this is what I’m saying.
I’m not speculating, I’ve mentioned on many occasions here that I do not quote from sutras but speak from meditative experience and unlike some have no issues discussing this openly.
I also don’t understand how I am bastardising sotapannas,

santa100
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Re: Does Sotapanna have the fear of death?

Post by santa100 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:45 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:38 pm
I’m not speculating, I’ve mentioned on many occasions here that I do not quote from sutras but speak from meditative experience and unlike some have no issues discussing this openly.
Problem is that anyone and everyone can speak from their "meditative experience" and hence, it absolutely doesn't mean anything, especially and most definitely when it comes to evaluating the mind state of Sotapannas. Heck, if I wanted to, I could also claim that from my own "meditative experience", I wasn't speculating in saying that Sotapannas have zero fear when facing death. See, there's the obvious problem right there with that approach.

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