Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

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khemindas
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Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by khemindas »

From what I gathered at Biography of Buddha, he first practiced arupa-jhanas under guidance of Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, and later started self-mortification, and later he recollected his practice in childhood and attained all four rupa-jhanas and later attained Nibbana. So if Arupa-jhanas are only attainable through rupa-jhanas, why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by santa100 »

Actually the Buddha already attained the 1st jhana when He was a child:
MN 36 wrote:I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation."

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by Manopubbangama »

khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
From what I gathered at Biography of Buddha, he first practiced arupa-jhanas under guidance of Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, and later started self-mortification, and later he recollected his practice in childhood and attained all four rupa-jhanas and later attained Nibbana. So if Arupa-jhanas are only attainable through rupa-jhanas, why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?
Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta (along with the Bodhisattva) reached the 7th and 8th jhana according to the MN26 account, but did they do this sequentially or somehow in isolation?

I think we can read the passages in one of two ways: 1, they obtained these feats in isolation, using some kind of method of which has not been technically accounted for, or 2, they sequentially obtained the 7th and 8th jhana and the text omitted the preceding jhanas.

Perhaps the yogic practices described in MN 36 could hypothetically lead to attaining a higher arupa-jhana in isolation, but this is just conjecture: what could be used as a supporting argument for this idea that the Bodhisattva forced himself to stop breathing, instead of climbing the jhanas from 1-8 and allowing the breadth to naturally disappear, which it does at 4. If we interpret MN36 in this way, it could hypothetically be describing the technical methods for obtaining jhana 7,8 in isolation.

To me the 2nd idea intuitively makes more sense because the message is essentially: you can obtain the highest levels of transcendent consciousness but without vipassana, you will not obtain Nibbana.
“Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of search: the noble search and the ignoble search. And what is the ignoble search? Here someone being himself subject to birth seeks what is also subject to birth; being himself subject to ageing, he seeks what is also subject to ageing; being himself subject to sickness, he seeks what is also subject to sickness; being himself subject to death, he seeks what is also subject to death; being himself subject to sorrow, he seeks what is also subject to sorrow; being himself subject to defilement, he seeks what is also subject to defilement.
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi

So the possibility exists that the rupa-jhanas were tacitly omitted in MN26 in order to focus on the purpose of the sutta which is: seek the deathless and not that which is subject to death.

Rebirth in the Arupa-jhanas is still subject to rebirth.

The Buddha, having understood causality (which implies anatta), and paticcasamupada attained release from rebirth.

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by thepea »

khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?
It lacked bhavana maya panna

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by Volo »

It might be they didn't dwell on them, and didn't consider them as separate states. Also I cannot recall any sutta, where Buddha taught arūpa jhānas without previously explaining 4 rūpa jhānas. This kind of supports that mastery over rūpa jhānas is required.

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
From what I gathered at Biography of Buddha, he first practiced arupa-jhanas under guidance of Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, and later started self-mortification, and later he recollected his practice in childhood and attained all four rupa-jhanas and later attained Nibbana.
In ordinary life, there is the common saying "its nothing".
People sometimes say 'It's nothing' as a polite response after someone has thanked them for something they have done.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... ts-nothing
People can say "its nothing", for many reasons, such as if someone loses their temper at them. The understanding person will reply: "Its nothing". Or when an irrational person rants & raves non-sense, an ordinary yet wise person can reflect: "Its nothing; it means nothing".

Taking this to an extreme level, those, such as Alara Kalama, who were seeking peace, might possibly have developed a meditation that regarded everything as "nothing". Why don't you try this yourself? Since you appear to be a monk, you have lots of time to develop a meditation, not based in jhana, but based in reflecting: "There is nothing; its nothing". I am sure if you spend your entire meditation reflecting: "There is nothing; it nothing", your mind will enter into some type of blank inwardly absorbed state.
khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
So if Arupa-jhanas are only attainable through rupa-jhanas, why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?
The method Alara Kalama cultivated & dwelt in may have been different to the arupa-jhana developed from rupa-jhana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by Zom »

1. Previous attainments are not there, because only the highest ones are highlighted in each case (Uddaka - 8th, Alara- 7th).

2. Alara and Uddaka, probably, had their own jhanic system (only in terms of explanations and systematization). I wrote about it here in details:

Buddha's system --- Kalama/Ramaputta system:

1. First Jhana --- Stage of Light
2. Second Jhana --- Stage of Light
3. Third Jhana --- Stage of Beauty
4. Fourth Jhana --- Stage of Imperturbability
5. Infinite Space --- Stage of Imperturbability
6. Infinite Counsiousness --- Stage of Imperturbability
7. Nothingness --- Nothingness
8. Neither/nor perception --- Neither/nor perception
9. Cessation of feeling and perception --- [N/A]

So, if this theory is correct, then Buddha couldn't have said that "Alara reached 1st jhana" or "2nd jhana". Though Alara had such meditative attainments.

3. Buddha didn't recollect his training under these two teachers, because he was searching for a clue. And suddenly he realised that this clue was his 1st jhana, attained spontaneously in youth.

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by budo »

khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
From what I gathered at Biography of Buddha, he first practiced arupa-jhanas under guidance of Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, and later started self-mortification, and later he recollected his practice in childhood and attained all four rupa-jhanas and later attained Nibbana. So if Arupa-jhanas are only attainable through rupa-jhanas, why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?
Probably because it felt natural to him. Think about it, children aren't masochists or sadistic. When he was doing self-mortification he was near death and being extremely masochistic, then on the verge of death he remembers his childhood memory of sitting in the grass under the tree and he feels good remembering that memory. This memory destroys his wrong perception of masochism. That you can't destroy fire with more fire, suffering with more suffering.

The way forward isn't masochism. The way forward is through pleasure, just not a dependent material form pleasure, but an independent sublime pleasure.

Enlightenment at the end of the day is about freedom and freedom is about independence and the Buddha wanted independence from the 5 aggregates. To be addicted, is by definition, to be dependent.

As Epictectus says:
"The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed. "
Addiction = Craving = Dependence = Slavery

Non-addiction = Independence from 5 aggregates = Freedom

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by DooDoot »

khemindas wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm
From what I gathered at Biography of Buddha, he first practiced arupa-jhanas under guidance of Alara Kalama and Udaka Ramaputta, and later started self-mortification, and later he recollected his practice in childhood and attained all four rupa-jhanas and later attained Nibbana. So if Arupa-jhanas are only attainable through rupa-jhanas, why he didn't recollected his practice under guidance of his masters?
MN 106 has stuff in it:
"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable: all are perceptions. Where they cease without remainder: that is peaceful, that is exquisite, i.e., the dimension of nothingness.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the first practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.

"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this: 'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the second practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.

"Then again, the disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the third practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

form
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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by form »

I would like to take this opportunity to ask, when one master higher jhanas, is it possible to let go of lower jhanas most of the time? In other words, no more first three jhanas, get into fourth jhanas one step and out to normal consciousness also in one step.

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by atipattoh »

Yes, the 5 masteries in VM on Jhana, one of it is to enter jhanas at ease. But the 2nd part is no and probably yes.
No because 4 th jhana is too strong, mentality choice would want to enter jhana naturally, it takes time to wear out
Yes (speculative, take this as a casual opinion), with good training, out to normal consciousness at ease, repetitive in-out is necessary for mind reading skill.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

MN 106 is related to 法空, the space and consciousness arupa (note that this is not Arupa Jhana), and the Buddha already declare that it is not unbounded.
If you insert Nibbana Sutta after the question of Ananda about noble liberation; there, you have the sketch of the path of the training.
So, by emphasizing 法空,is like breaking a ruler in two, when one think that he is holding the middle, he is actually holding the other end of the half.
So, i wouldn't wanna hold it!

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Re: Does Buddha attained arupa-jhanas without Rupa?

Post by form »

atipattoh wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:29 pm
Yes, the 5 masteries in VM on Jhana, one of it is to enter jhanas at ease. But the 2nd part is no and probably yes.
No because 4 th jhana is too strong, mentality choice would want to enter jhana naturally, it takes time to wear out
Yes (speculative, take this as a casual opinion), with good training, out to normal consciousness at ease, repetitive in-out is necessary for mind reading skill.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

MN 106 is related to 法空, the space and consciousness arupa (note that this is not Arupa Jhana), and the Buddha already declare that it is not unbounded.
If you insert Nibbana Sutta after the question of Ananda about noble liberation; there, you have the sketch of the path of the training.
So, by emphasizing 法空,is like breaking a ruler in two, when one think that he is holding the middle, he is actually holding the other end of the half.
So, i wouldn't wanna hold it!
I am in agreement especially with your comment on fourth jhana being too strong and takes a while to come out completely.

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