Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

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sentinel
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Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by sentinel »

Hi all,

What does it mean by feeling in feelings ?
Why the " in " ?
Does it mean bodily sensation ?
Emotional / psychological ? Both ?
Why it says , contemplating mindfully but After removing avarice and sorrow ?



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He dwells contemplating internally, externally, internally and externally, feelings in feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, after removing avarice and sorrow regarding the world.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings James,

I've always understood it to mean "in and of themselves"... i.e. devoid of conceptual overlay or inference.

Or in other words, tathata (thusness, suchness)

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Paul. :)
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Sam Vara
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by Sam Vara »

The Pali term is, I think, vedanasu vedananupassi. This would appear to mean "contemplates feeling in feelings", which appears to have been translated in different ways due to its vagueness. (It actually might be a specific and precise idiom, which eludes my understanding, of course).

Ven. Sujato translates it as "an aspect of feelings", linking this to the hedonic quality (pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral) of the feeling in question. Something like "he knows the pleasantness of pleasant feelings...etc."

Bhikkhu Bodhi has "feelings as feelings", which fits the interpretation that Retro gives above, and which I am most familiar with. "He knows them just as feelings, and doesn't proliferate over them"

Horner has "the feelings in the feelings", which could mean either, or even, conceivably, that the contemplation is of selected feelings within the range of possible feelings.
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by santa100 »

James Tan wrote:What does it mean by feeling in feelings ?
Ven. Bodhi's translation in MN 10:
What are the four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world.
And footnote:
The repetition in the phrase “contemplating the body as a body” (kāye kāyānupassı̄), according to MA, has the purpose of precisely determining the object of contemplation and of isolating that object from others with which it might be confused. Thus, in this practice, the body should be contemplated as such, and not one’s feelings, ideas, and emotions concerning it. The phrase also means that the body should be contemplated simply as a body and not as a man, a woman, a self, or a living being. Similar considerations apply to the repetitions in the case of each of the other three foundations of mindfulness.

“Covetousness and grief,” MA says, stands for sensual desire and ill will, the principal hindrances that must be overcome for the practice to succeed
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by SarathW »

Answer to this question is depend on who you ask this.
The best way to approach this question is by understanding the purpose of Satipathana.
Based on that I tend to go with Ven BB as Santa pointed out.
The purpose of Satipathana is to realise the Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta nature of the five aggregate.
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

James Tan wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:49 pm What does it mean by feeling in feelings ?
I understanding it to mean focusing exclusively on feelings, and more generally sticking with one object or frame of reference at a time, not drifting into other frames.
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chownah
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by chownah »

I think it is instructive to compare the mn10 (The Establishing of Mindfulness Discourse Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta) section of feelings with the mn118 (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing) section on feelings.

First the mn10 selection (The Establishing of Mindfulness Discourse Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta):
B. Feelings
“And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.’

“When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.’10
“In this way he remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves, or externally on feelings in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on feelings in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings. Or his mindfulness that ‘There are feelings’ is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by [not clinging to] anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves.
.....and the mn118 selection (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing):
The Four Frames of Reference
"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?
....[edit: I skip the first section on the body and go to the section on feelings]....
[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Notice that the mn118 selection (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing) specifically states (before my edit) that it is talking about the four frames of reference and also notice that section 2 of this selection specifically states that what it describes is about being "focused on feelings in & of themselves ".....so it seems that the mn10 and mn118 selections on feelings are talking about the same thing.

Notice that the mn118 selection seems to have a scope of description which seems to go a bit beyond what I think most of us would have thought as being strictly about feeling....specifically "sensitive to mental fabrications" and " calming mental fabrications".

I think that the inclusion of mental fabrications in the feeling section of foundations of mindfulness is an indication that there are connections between the four foundations (or at least between feelings and the mind) and that they are not meant to be strictly isolated....that instead perhaps it is the connections between them which is where we should be exploring. For instance in the mn118 selection it seems to be saying that being "focused on feeling in and of themselves" can be fruitfully compatible with considerations of mental fabrications at least to the level of being sensitive to their arising and to calming them....I think that the acknowlegement of the fabrications arising might be a useful event towards which some discernment might be directed....and that perhaps this might act as venue which might allow the focus to shift form "feelings" to the "mind".

I also think that there is a fruitful connection between mindfulness of body and mindfulness of feelings in that if you think about it one of the major ways (if not THE major way) that we can be aware of the body is by bodily feelings. I know that in my meditation on the body I alway seem to get to the discernment that what I am aware of is bodily feelings i.e. that in a certain way mindfulness of the body is just mindfulness of bodily feelings i.e. feelings. So, again it appears to me that there are connections between the kinds of mindfulness and perhaps this is an area worth exploring.

I don't pretend to have this all figured out....I am just going along seeing what I can see.
chownah
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

The meaning of "feeling in feelings" is just feeling.
My teacher explained that in pali they used a lot of repetitions.
For example they would say "I am dishes washing the dishes. "
Or "I am dog walking the dog."
So when they say "I am contemplating feeling in feelings" what it means in English is simply "I am contemplating feelings".
There's nothing more complex to it than that.
SarathW
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by SarathW »

chownah wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:10 pm I think it is instructive to compare the mn10 (The Establishing of Mindfulness Discourse Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta) section of feelings with the mn118 (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing) section on feelings.

First the mn10 selection (The Establishing of Mindfulness Discourse Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta):
B. Feelings
“And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.’

“When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh.’ When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, ‘I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.’10
“In this way he remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves, or externally on feelings in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on feelings in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings. Or his mindfulness that ‘There are feelings’ is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by [not clinging to] anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves.
.....and the mn118 selection (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing):
The Four Frames of Reference
"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?
....[edit: I skip the first section on the body and go to the section on feelings]....
[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
Notice that the mn118 selection (Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing) specifically states (before my edit) that it is talking about the four frames of reference and also notice that section 2 of this selection specifically states that what it describes is about being "focused on feelings in & of themselves ".....so it seems that the mn10 and mn118 selections on feelings are talking about the same thing.

Notice that the mn118 selection seems to have a scope of description which seems to go a bit beyond what I think most of us would have thought as being strictly about feeling....specifically "sensitive to mental fabrications" and " calming mental fabrications".

I think that the inclusion of mental fabrications in the feeling section of foundations of mindfulness is an indication that there are connections between the four foundations (or at least between feelings and the mind) and that they are not meant to be strictly isolated....that instead perhaps it is the connections between them which is where we should be exploring. For instance in the mn118 selection it seems to be saying that being "focused on feeling in and of themselves" can be fruitfully compatible with considerations of mental fabrications at least to the level of being sensitive to their arising and to calming them....I think that the acknowlegement of the fabrications arising might be a useful event towards which some discernment might be directed....and that perhaps this might act as venue which might allow the focus to shift form "feelings" to the "mind".

I also think that there is a fruitful connection between mindfulness of body and mindfulness of feelings in that if you think about it one of the major ways (if not THE major way) that we can be aware of the body is by bodily feelings. I know that in my meditation on the body I alway seem to get to the discernment that what I am aware of is bodily feelings i.e. that in a certain way mindfulness of the body is just mindfulness of bodily feelings i.e. feelings. So, again it appears to me that there are connections between the kinds of mindfulness and perhaps this is an area worth exploring.

I don't pretend to have this all figured out....I am just going along seeing what I can see.
chownah
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Now consider how run of the mill person contemplates on four frames of reference.
For instance, when there is a painful meaning he cries like a child.
When there is a pleasant feeling he sings and dance and wake up the neighbors.
When there is a neutral feeling he gets bored.
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

James Tan wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:49 pm Why it says , .... but After removing avarice and sorrow ?
That's the short sutta code, for temporarily removing the 5 fetters.
Avarice and sorrow are the first two fetters, and whenever you see them mentioned it means all the 5 fetters.
Removing the 5 fetters means you've been in Jhana basically.
sentinel
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by sentinel »

Hi all members ,

Thanks for your answers . I suppose I get what you mean .
In short , about developing the Mindfulness (sensitivity of the mind) towards the appearance and dissolution of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feeling , after one calming the mind .

But one more thing , I suppose , in the four foundation of mindfulness , the feeling category should be a short code for feeling perception intention . What do you all think ?


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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by form »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:43 pm The meaning of "feeling in feelings" is just feeling.
My teacher explained that in pali they used a lot of repetitions.
For example they would say "I am dishes washing the dishes. "
Or "I am dog walking the dog."
So when they say "I am contemplating feeling in feelings" what it means in English is simply "I am contemplating feelings".
There's nothing more complex to it than that.
:goodpost: that made sense.

It will be interesting to know if sanskrit is also like this.
form
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by form »

Feeling in feeling could just mean attached to feeling. Three aggregates namely feeling, perception and volition are always together stemming from contact. And craving stemmed from feeling. It could be just a fancy way as to pali expressed attachment.
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by chownah »

Feeling in feeling could just mean that feelings beget feelings so behind every feeling there is a previous feeling which can be found embedded therein.
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Re: Meaning of feeling in feelings ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

James Tan wrote: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:25 pm But one more thing , I suppose , in the four foundation of mindfulness , the feeling category should be a short code for feeling perception intention . What do you all think ?
I think technically that would be in the fourth frame of satipatthana, which includes paying attention to the workings of the aggregates as a whole. The idea of the second frame of satipatthana is to focus just on the feelings themselves.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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