Ven. Nanavira: "Sotapanna is completely free of dukkha."

[SkillfulA]

No. Nothing there.

So how do you translate it then? And what does it mean?

[DooDoot]

So how do you translate it then? And what does it mean?

Everyone has translated it. It merely means "seven times at most" or "seven times maximum". The bit about the "lifetimes" is added or inferred.

OK let add a few words to make it hopefully clear enough for you.

Personally, I don't regard it as particularly useful or skilful to think of a sotapanna as one that easily, habitually and generally delights in sensuality (until you desire to define yourself to be a sotapanna). A sotapanna is a Noble Person - Ariya Sangha. I prefer to think of a sotapanna as a mind that still may have sensual sense contacts or may delight in tasty food or otherwise simple pleasures, such as a sunset. If merely the theme of "beautiful" arises, generally, this is sensual desire. Merely, momentarily viewing something as beautiful does not mean the sotappana pursues the beautiful object like a puthujjana.

Edit: so if the Buddha would refer to a sotapanna in the Dart sutta his statement would be wrong because also a sotapanna has those anusayas mentioned in that sutta. A sotapanna does sometimes delight into sensuality like a puthujjana. So since a Buddha wouldn't make a wrong or statement he obviously doesn't refer to him. Leaves the only conclusion, he refers to at least an anagami.

No. There are times when the sotapanna does not delight in sensuality (which would be most of the time). There are times the sotapanna experiences feelings without any craving (which would be most of the time, especially in meditation). If this did not occur, the sotapanna would not be a sotapanna. Your arguments presented remain illogical & unconvincing. As I posted, it appears Refuge in the Triple Gem cannot occur when there is reviling or belittling the Sotapanna who are Noble Sangha. I would suggest to view a Sotapanna in a far more lofty manner.

[SkillfulA]

Everyone has translated it. It merely means "seven times at most" or "seven times maximum". The bit about the "lifetimes" is added or inferred.

OK. And what does that mean, "seven times at most" ?

Personally, I don't regard it as particularly useful or skilful to think of a sotapanna as one that easily, habitually and generally delights in sensuality.

Your opinion of what is skillful is one thing, what the suttas state another. Please review the fetters a sotapanna is free from and compare it with a sakadagami and anagami concerning sensuality.

A sotapanna is a Noble Person - Ariya Sangha. I prefer to think of a sotapanna as a mind that still may have sensual sense contacts or may delight in tasty food or otherwise simple pleasures, such as a sunset. If merely the theme of "beautiful" arises, generally, this is sensual desire. Merely, momentarily viewing something as beautiful does not mean the sotappana pursues the beautiful object like a puthujjana.

Noted your preference.
Well the suttas don't support your preference. Wonder from where you have your picture of a sotapanna?

Let me give one example. Ever heard about Visakha, the chief female supporter of the Buddha? She became a sotapanna with 7, got married, had plenty of kids and wanted even more kids and grandsons, griefed when one died etc.. Udana 8.8 These are the accounts of one confirmed sotapanna not any unconfirmed sotapanna of these days. So getting married, having frequently sex, wanting to have kids, grieving about their beloved grandson, etc.. Does that sound familiar? Exactly, like many puthujjanas do as well. On the other hand there are even puthujjanas like hermits/ yogis who live a celebrate life as well pursue overall much less sensuality than Visakha did.

There is no clear distinction of a puthujjana and a sotapanna in respect to sensuality. If you would compare a puthujjana or sotapanna with an anagami in respect to sensuality, then yes there is a clear cut distinction. Why? because an anagami is free of sensuality.

No. There are times when the sotapanna does not delight in sensuality

There are also times a puthujjana doesn't delight in sensuality. Example hermit, yogi. No difference in that respect.

There are times the sotapanna experiences feelings without any craving (which would be most of the time, especially in meditation).

Possible, but also possible for a puthujjana who goes into samadhi. No difference in that respect.

Your arguments presented remain illogical & unconvincing

Yes to you, I can see that. No issue for me.

As I posted, it appears Refuge in the Triple Gem cannot occur when there is reviling or belittling the Sotapanna who are Noble Sangha.

I neither belittle nor exaggerate it like you. Please show me any sutta which clearly supports your exaggeration concerning sensuality.

Sensuality is not a fetter a sotapanna has permanently weakened (that would be a sakadagami by definition) nor got rid of (that would be an anagami by definition).

[SkillfulA]

No. There are times when the sotapanna does not delight in sensuality (which would be most of the time).

Can you please give a sutta reference which supports your unfounded statement "which would be most of the time" ?

I know you can't... Since your views and ideas are not reflected in the suttas where do they stem from if I may ask? Are you one of those cases who thinks he is a sotapanna and knows better than even the suttas? Or do you believe you are a sotapanna whereas in reality you are actually already a sakadagamin since your kamaraga is greatly reduced? No hard feelings, just asking.

Your definition of a sotapanna fits more a sakadagamin who has weakened kamaraga as defined. If you still don't stand corrected no point for me to engage with someone who isn't truthful like you further.

From Wikipedia

"The three specific chains or fetters (Pali: saṃyojana) of which the Sakadagamin is free are:
1. Sakkāya-diṭṭhi (Pali) - Belief in self
2. Sīlabbata-parāmāsa (Pali) - Attachment to rites and rituals
3. Vicikicchā (Pali) - Skeptical doubt
The Sakadagami also significantly weakened the chains of:
4. Kāma-rāga (Pali) - Sensuous craving
5. Byāpāda (Pali) - Ill-will

Thus, the Sakadagamin is an intermediate stage between the Sotapanna, who still has comparatively strong sensuous desire and ill-will, and the Anagami, who is completely free from sensuous desire and ill-will. A Sakadagami's mind is very pure. Thoughts connected with greed, hatred and delusion do not arise often, and when they do, do not become obsessive. "

Sutta reference D 6, D 16, d 18, d 19, and so many many more

D 6: [D.I.156] 13. ‘What are they, Lord?’ ‘Mahāli, in one case a monk, having abandoned three fetters, becomes a Stream-Winner, not liable to states of woe, firmly set on the path to enlightenment. Again, a monk who has abandoned the three fetters, and has reduced his greed, hatred and delusion, becomes a Once-Returner who, having returned to this world once more, will make an end of suffering

As explicitly stated "Reduced greed" is a distinction or characteristic of a sakadagamin not a sotapanna. Full stop.

[SkillfulA]

Since the translation of D 6 might be not clear enough for you here another quote with the pail as well.

The Connected Discourses - The Great Book (45-56) - 55. Connected Discourses on Stream-Entry - I. Bamboo gate - 8 (8) The Brick Hall (1)

The male lay follower Sudatta who has died had, with the utter destruction of three fetters and with the diminishing of greed, hatred, and delusion, become a once-returner who, after coming back to this world only one more time, will make an end to suffering.

Sudatto, ānanda, upāsako kālaṅkato tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā rāgadosamohānaṃ tanuttā sakadāgāmī; sakideva imaṃ lokaṃ āgantvā dukkhassantaṃ karissati.

Raga as in the fetter kama-raga as Lust for thee five cords of sensuality.

[DooDoot]

Your opinion of what is skillful is one thing, what the suttas state another. Please review the fetters a sotapanna is free from and compare it with a sakadagami and anagami concerning sensuality.

Its irrelevant. SN 13.1, which was already quoted, says a sotapanna has destroyed a very large amount of suffering. Therefore, you appear to be saying, per the wrong view in MN 22, that sensuality is not suffering & sensuality is not an obstacle to stream-entry.

Noted your preference.

I do not post preferences. I post what is logical.

Well the suttas don't support your preference. Wonder from where you have your picture of a sotapanna?

The suttas (MN 44) say the "sakkaya" the sotappana has cut arises from craving & becoming. Thus, when the sotappana has cut through the illusion of self-becoming (attabhvava), at that time, the mind must also be free from craving.

The suttas (SN 22.59) say when the three characteristics are discerned, craving diminishes. Since sensuality is a form of craving, obviously, when the sotappana experiences the three characteristics, sensuality is diminished.

Let me give one example. Ever heard about Visakha, the chief female supporter of the Buddha? She became a sotapanna with 7, got married, had plenty of kids and wanted even more kids and grandsons, griefed when one died etc.. Udana 8.8

Obviously the lady in Ud 8.8 was not a sotapanna because Ud 8.8 contradicts SN 13.1. A sotapanna is a noble person, worthy of respect & honor. The lady in Ud 8.8 does not meet this criteria. That you personally identify with a sentiment old grandmother as a sotappana I must say i find quite novel and amusing and it brings to mind the verse below:

64. Though all his life a fool associates with a wise man, he no more comprehends the Truth than a spoon tastes the flavor of the soup.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html

Sensuality is not a fetter a sotapanna has permanently weakened (that would be a sakadagami by definition) nor got rid of (that would be an anagami by definition).

Illogical, per my post. The impression is you wish to claim you are a sotapanna even though you are addicted to sensuality. The suttas describe a sotappana as follows:

"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [three fetters], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most [fetters] seven remaining... is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."

At Savatthi. "Monks, form is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat any formation as permanent ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might treat some formation as permanent ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat any formation as pleasurable ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might treat some formation as pleasurable ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat anything as self ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might treat something as self ― there is such a possibility.’

http://www.yellowrobe.com/component/con ... ments.html

It is plainly obvious by the above suttas:

1. The sotapanna has obtained the Dhamma-Eye & Right View

2. When the Dhamma-Eye & Right View are operative in the sotapanna, conditioned things are not viewed as bringing pleasure.

3. The sotappana is never again destined for states of woe.

4. Therefore, a diminution of sensuality must occur in the sotapanna (even though the suttas do not say as such).

Since the translation of D 6 might be not clear enough for you here another quote with the pail as well.

You give the impression of searching for suttas to justify indulgence in sensuality. The suttas say the sotapanna is never again destined for states of woe. The suttas also say:

Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39

Since a sotapanna will never again experience a hellish, animal or ghostly birth, per AN 6.39, the cause of this must be an diminishing of greed, hatred & delusion.

From Wikipedia

I know what the 10 fetters are. The 1st fetter represents the Buddha-Dhamma. That is why it is 1st. There are contemplatives of other religions that have diminished or eliminated sensuality but have not broken through the 1st fetter. That is why the fetters are in the order they are presented in.

[SkillfulA]

Thanks for the stimulation, may you be well.

[DooDoot]

Thanks for the stimulation...

The suttas say, as quoted:

He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat any formation as pleasurable ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that an ordinary person might treat some formation as pleasurable ― there is such a possibility.’

MN 115

If the formations on this page were "stimulating", MN 115 says this only is so for puthujjana.

[SkillfulA]

If the formations on this page were "stimulating", MN 115 says this only is so for puthujjana.

[DooDoot]

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

[SkillfulA]

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

very kind of you

[DooDoot]

very kind of you

You're welcome.

MN 56 is about Upali's stream-entry. Included in it was a teaching about the drawbacks of sensual pleasures:

Then the Buddha taught the householder Upāli step by step, with a talk on giving, ethical conduct, and heaven. He explained the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, so sordid and corrupt, and the benefit of renunciation. And when he knew that Upāli’s mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, joyful, and confident he explained the special teaching of the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye, in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Upāli: “Everything that has a beginning has an end.” Then Upāli saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. He went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions. He said to the Buddha: “Well, now, sir, I must go. I have many duties, and much to do.” “Please, householder, go at your convenience.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn56/en/sujato

[SkillfulA]

very kind of you

You're welcome.

Most want to be right,
few are those who stop.

Few indeed are those who see the dukkha,
Which most mistake as sukha.


Much merits for sharing the sutta quote!