From Heedlessness to Hell

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Manopubbangama
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From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Manopubbangama »

"I tell you this, monks, not from having heard it from another contemplative or brahman. On the contrary, I tell you this just as I have known for myself, seen for myself, understood for myself."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html



Hell is something we should work extremely hard to avoid. This is no garden-variety lake of fire, but an extremely terrifying place to go to. It is for this reason we are extremely lucky to have been born in a time in which we can imbibe the teachings of the Buddha.

There is no one to save us from Hell and we can blame no one for our own actions: not our parents, our friends or least of all; "society."

If we do something horrible, like murder a living human being, not only will we probably get caught, and be subject to imprisonment, possible torture, and death from the state, but we may have to deal with something even worth after death.

One of the first experiences that exist in hell is to have red-hot iron stakes driven through all different parts of the body and you will not die until your bad kamma is exhausted.

After that you will be held upside down and sliced with blades; harnessed to a chariot and driven over burning embers. After that you will be help upside down and dipped into a cauldron of fire, there you will be dipped in and out and will not die for as long as the bad kamma is not yet exhausted.

After a long time the eastern gate will open and finally you may think there will be relief. From this point there will be no relief. From here your outer skin, inner skin, tendons and even bones turn to smoke. But there will be no death until the bad kamma is exhausted.

When the eastern gate opens again, and you may think that this great fire is finally going to end and that there will be respite. There will be no respite. From here you will fall into the excrement hell where giant needle-mouthed beings bore into your flesh and tendons.

Will this be the end of the suffering? Not until your bad kamma is exhausted.

From there you will fall into the hot ashes hell in the Simbali Forest with burning thorns, climbing up and down them looking for an escape, but you will not be able to escape until your bad kamma is exhausted. From there you will enter the sword-leaf forest, where the leaves are like razor-blades and stirred by the wind will cut off hands, feet, ears and nose, but there will be no relief from this until your bad kamma is exhausted.

But don't worry, there is a river nearby. But the river is filled with lye, and swimming upstream and downstream you will have no relief from the excruciating pain until the bad kamma is exhausted.

What happens when you experience hunger and thirst? When you are hungry the hell-wardens will pry open your mouth with red-hot tongs and give you a nice, delicious red-hot copper ball to swallow; when thirsty you can wash it down with liquid, molten burning copper.



Does this short summary sound like something that an armchair 18th Century European Philosophe would find amenable?

In that case, you can delve into hermeneutics and try to change the literal meaning of this story, or at least, claim that the Buddha didn't actually say this.

Or you can accept this story as a cautionary tale that this life is extremely unique and your time here is very limited to cultivate the Dhamma.
santa100
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by santa100 »

Manopubbangama wrote:Does this short summary sound like something that an armchair 18th Century European Philosophe would find amenable?

In that case, you can delve into hermeneutics and try to change the literal meaning of this story, or at least, claim that the Buddha didn't actually say this.
Actually it's impossible to change the literal meaning 'cuz most of those exceedingly ghastly forms of torture were...already implemented by humans throughout history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture
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DooDoot
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:13 pmhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

claim that the Buddha didn't actually say this.
Well, there is zero evidence the Buddha said this. Since the Sujato group is claiming many suttas in the MN are inauthentic, who can know?

However, this reminds me of the Thai monk Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, who built an art gallery called the 'Theatre of Spiritual Entertainment' (in the video).


On the ground floor, there is a stage. So under the stage, Buddhadasa got the monks to paint pictures of "hell" for the children to see (since only children were small enough to walk under the stage). :tongue:

As for the sutta quoted, it ends with the following:
Warned by the deva messengers,
those youths who are heedless
grieve for a long, long time —
people entering a lower state.
But those here who are good,
people of integrity,
when warned by the deva messengers
aren't heedless
of the noble Dhamma — ever.
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now
,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.
The sutta appears to be saying to abandon clinging or upadana. :meditate:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Manopubbangama
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:53 pm
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:13 pmhttps://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

claim that the Buddha didn't actually say this.
Well, there is zero evidence the Buddha said this.
Well...you wrote here:
:

Sorry but I quoted many suttas. It seems the issue is not following the suttas.

Imo, this is an unfortunate place to be; to not be able to follow the suttas.

I posted Buddhadasa is not my teacher ....

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33226&start=30


So should we follow some suttas and not others?

If so, which ones should we follow?

What is the criteria?

Can you help me understand your reasoning here, please?
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:59 pmCan you help me understand your reasoning here, please?
Sure, I am always willing to help. There are three refuges in Buddha-Dhamma often called 'The Triple Refuge', namely, Refuge in the Buddha, Refuge in the Dhamma & Refuge in the Sangha. If you find the official Refuge in the Dhamma, it should be self-explanatory. Best wishes & good luck. :smile:
Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Manopubbangama
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:02 pm
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:59 pmCan you help me understand your reasoning here, please?
Sure, I am always willing to help. There are three refuges in Buddha-Dhamma often called 'The Triple Refuge', namely, Refuge in the Buddha, Refuge in the Dhamma & Refuge in the Sangha. If you find the official Refuge in the Dhamma, it should be self-explanatory. Best wishes & good luck. :smile:
Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
You just said there is zero evidence the Buddha said what was quoted in a Sutta....... and now you answer by quoting another sutta?

I'm asking what is the criteria to which you believe one sutta is authentic while another is not?
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DooDoot
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:20 pmI'm asking what is the criteria to which you believe one sutta is authentic while another is not?
I suggested already the Dhamma Refuge. The Dhamma Refuge is the same refuge of any scrupulously honest person (regardless of any religious or non-religious affiliation). In other words, it is even irrelevant if the Buddha spoke the Dhamma Refuge or not. What is relevant is any scrupulously honest person only adheres to what is written below:
Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Teacher is our respected mentor. We speak thus out of respect for the Teacher'?"

"No, lord."

"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you say, 'The Contemplative says this. We speak thus in line with the Contemplative's words'?"

"No, lord."

"Knowing thus and seeing thus, would you dedicate yourselves to another teacher [such as Mahasi Sayadaw or Buddhadasa]?"

"No, lord."

"Is it the case that you speak simply in line with what you have known, seen & understood for yourselves?"

"Yes, lord."

"Good, monks. You have been guided by me in this Dhamma which is to be seen here & now, timeless (immediately effective), inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the observant for themselves. For it has been said, 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,' and it was in reference to this that it was said.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
sentinel
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:02 pm
Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
Isn't that dhamma can be found in two fold , one is mundane and the other supramundane .



According to MN117

And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... an.html#s1
You always gain by giving
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Manopubbangama
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:24 am
I suggested already the Dhamma Refuge.
I take refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha every day.

And I desire to use my energies to avoid hell.

Meditating on hell is a part of samvega.
Spaciousness
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Spaciousness »

Just sharing, this is one book that I will not forget in a very long time-
https://www.shambhala.com/a-guided-tour ... -3534.html

by Sam Bercholz, life-long Buddhist practitioner, and founder of Shambhala Publications. A very interesting perspective.
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Manopubbangama
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by Manopubbangama »

Spaciousness wrote: Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:24 am Just sharing, this is one book that I will not forget in a very long time-
https://www.shambhala.com/a-guided-tour ... -3534.html

by Sam Bercholz, life-long Buddhist practitioner, and founder of Shambhala Publications. A very interesting perspective.
Nice add, sir.

As long as we are sharing modern representations of Buddhist hell, Jigoku, the Japanese cult classic comes to mind:

chriscap014
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by chriscap014 »

Spaciousness wrote: Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:24 am Just sharing, this is one book that I will not thérapie émotionnelle forget in a very long time-
https://www.shambhala.com/a-guided-tour ... -3534.html

by Sam Bercholz, life-long Buddhist practitioner, and founder of Shambhala Publications. A very interesting perspective.
Hello!
This is a good article because there are many tips and also many advices that will be very useful to me.
auto
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by auto »

James Tan wrote: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:41 am Isn't that dhamma can be found in two fold , one is mundane and the other supramundane .



According to MN117

And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view....

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... an.html#s1
it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakudha_Kaccayana wrong view.
auto
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:02 pm
Manopubbangama wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:59 pmCan you help me understand your reasoning here, please?
Sure, I am always willing to help. There are three refuges in Buddha-Dhamma often called 'The Triple Refuge', namely, Refuge in the Buddha, Refuge in the Dhamma & Refuge in the Sangha. If you find the official Refuge in the Dhamma, it should be self-explanatory. Best wishes & good luck. :smile:
Bhikkhus, it is a gain for you, it is well gained by you, that you have obtained the opportunity for living the holy life. I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
maybe to imagine hell is too fantastic but maybe birth as an animal is more realistic for your vinnana?

prolly birth as a super god you take that view for granted?
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Re: From Heedlessness to Hell

Post by DooDoot »

auto wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:58 pmmaybe to imagine hell is too fantastic but maybe birth as an animal is more realistic for your vinnana?

prolly birth as a super god you take that view for granted?
Thanks Auto. I do not recall expressing disbelief in "hell". I did quote a sutta which refers a "hell" of painful undesirable feelings at the six sense bases. As for animals and gods, yes, I also believe many people behave like animals and gods. In fact, often it is the gods acting like animals (such as the wealthy murdering people for money, in wars of imperialism & military profits). Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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