Is buddhism difficult? Why?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pmUntil we reach stream-entry, attempting to give a semantic definition of Nibanna is absolutely worthless.
Unless "you" are a stream-enterer, the above view appears to invalidate itself as "absolutely worthless". But, yes, at least I agree that a post on DW about Nibbana by a real stream-enterer ;) is worth much. I imagine a stream-enterer is incapable of telling any lies & adheres strictly to the truth. I imagine a stream-enterer will regard the follow teaching as worth grasping & mastering:
Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:meditate:
Manopubbangama wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pmIf someone is attempting to give you a definition of Nibanna while not having mastered even the rudiments of Sila, they should not be taken seriously in the least bit and will cause much harm for themselves.
The definition of Nibbana is found in the suttas. It is the end of suffering; the end of craving; the end of attachment; the end of "I-making" & "my-making"; the end of lust, greed, hatred, delusion & ignorance. Even Mara is at least intelligent enough to know what Nibbana is (which is why Mara attacks Noble practitioners).
Manopubbangama wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pmIt must be experienced firsthand.
It is a long held tradition in Theravada Buddhism there are meditation monks and scholar monks. Are you saying a monk such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, who self-admittedly struggles with meditation, should not translate suttas about Nibbana nor teach about Nibbana? Then what about monks such as Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Buddhadasa & Ajahn Sumedho versus monks such as Ajahn Brahm & the Burmese & Sri Lankan monks who teach different views about the Dhamma? Are you saying some of these monks must be wrong therefore some should be ignored? Or are you saying any monk that follows 227 moral precepts has reached Nibbana because they have kept the precepts? Please explain?
lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pmCan the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty?
Good question. Sila or morality alone is unrelated to Nibbana. While sila must exist for Nibbana, sila won't start the path to Nibbana. The path to Nibbana starts with giving up self-clinging. The suttas clearly say the fetter to be broken for stream-entry to Nibbana is "self-view". Also, another fetter to be broken is wrong views about the role of sila. When abandoning self-clinging is easy, the next steps become easy. Monks can impeccably follow 227 rule Vinaya sila for many years but end up disrobing because of an inability to give up the self survival instinct. There is a mental defilement or mental formation called "self". Giving this up may not be easy (because it is a survival instinct), which is probably why the Buddha generally did not teach the path to Nibbana to everyone. I think it is very important to accept Nibbana may not be for you. Nibbana is for peace. Nibbana is not for tying oneself into knots of stress & anxiety. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:29 am, edited 19 times in total.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by JohnK »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:20 am Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:02 am Personally, I would not use the analogy of "running". For me, this is contrary to the path. Nibbana is reached by "stopping" rather than by "running".
:goodpost:

A very true take on the nature of the path, that may appear counter-intuitive to some.

Metta,
Paul. :)
My reading of Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that stopping (the cycle of fabrication and becoming) is certainly the goal, but how it applies to the path to the goal is more complex. He seems to say that skillful fabrication is a necessary part of the path (he might even say the path is itself a skillful fabrication). So perhaps the necessary stopping on the path is a the stopping of unskillful fabrication and becoming -- replacing it with skillful.
(Or perhaps there is a gradual lessening of all fabrication/becoming??? -- fabrications becoming more limited and refined until...)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by paul »

JohnK wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:45 am My reading of Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that stopping (the cycle of fabrication and becoming) is certainly the goal, but how it applies to the path to the goal is more complex. He seems to say that skillful fabrication is a necessary part of the path (he might even say the path is itself a skillful fabrication). So perhaps the necessary stopping on the path is a the stopping of unskillful fabrication and becoming -- replacing it with skillful.
(Or perhaps there is a gradual lessening of all fabrication/becoming??? -- fabrications becoming more limited and refined until...)
It's a common and often unprofitable mistake to leap ahead and view things from the perspective of nibbana which is unconditioned, rather than from the practitioner's current position on the path, which is a conditioned entity, and where skilful use must be made of conditioned phenomena.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings John,
JohnK wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:45 am My reading of Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that stopping (the cycle of fabrication and becoming) is certainly the goal, but how it applies to the path to the goal is more complex. He seems to say that skillful fabrication is a necessary part of the path (he might even say the path is itself a skillful fabrication). So perhaps the necessary stopping on the path is a the stopping of unskillful fabrication and becoming -- replacing it with skillful.
(Or perhaps there is a gradual lessening of all fabrication/becoming??? -- fabrications becoming more limited and refined until...)
I do not think you're presenting ven. Thanissaro in the best light here. After all, he did translate the following sutta and include it in his study guide on kamma, so it's reasonable to assume that he both knows of the truth, and values this sutta as an appropriate representation of it.
AN 4.232 wrote:"These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication... an injurious verbal fabrication... an injurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an injurious world where he is touched by injurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

"And what is kamma that is bright with bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an uninjurious bodily fabrication... an uninjurious verbal fabrication... an uninjurious mental fabrication... He rearises in an uninjurious world where he is touched by uninjurious contacts... He experiences feelings that are exclusively pleasant, like those of the Ever-radiant Devas. This is called kamma that is bright with bright result.

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & uninjurious... He rearises in an injurious & uninjurious world where he is touched by injurious & uninjurious contacts... He experiences injurious & uninjurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result.

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? The intention right there to abandon this kamma that is dark with dark result... this kamma that is bright with bright result... this kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."
Now, I don't want to go too far off on this tangent other than to reaffirm the validity of what DooDoot stated earlier about the unsuitability of "running" as a metaphor, and that (as per the sutta quote above) it is the cessation of action, that is both the path and the goal.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

paul wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:02 am
JohnK wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:45 am My reading of Thanissaro Bhikkhu suggests that stopping (the cycle of fabrication and becoming) is certainly the goal, but how it applies to the path to the goal is more complex. He seems to say that skillful fabrication is a necessary part of the path (he might even say the path is itself a skillful fabrication). So perhaps the necessary stopping on the path is a the stopping of unskillful fabrication and becoming -- replacing it with skillful.
(Or perhaps there is a gradual lessening of all fabrication/becoming??? -- fabrications becoming more limited and refined until...)
It's a common and often unprofitable mistake to leap ahead and view things from the perspective of nibbana which is unconditioned, rather than from the practitioner's current position on the path, which is a conditioned entity, and where skilful use must be made of conditioned phenomena.
:goodpost:

Cutting and pasting from accesstoinsight alone is worthless: the teachings much be applied.

Getting lost in a maze of semantic views and attached to translations without working on one's own defilements is not helpful to the path and makes a difficult path even more difficult.
lostitude
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by lostitude »

Hi everyone,

Many thanks for your responses, they have all been instructive. A few follow-up questions/remarks though:
budo wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm Imho, I believe there's no such thing as motivation. If you need to motivate yourself it means you don't really want to do it. When you really want something, do you require other's permission, approval, inspiration or guidance? No, you just do it because you want to do it.
I don't think that's the only cause of a lack of motivation. It can also be caused by the feeling that you just don't know how to do it. Just like in a math class at school, the bright students love answering the teacher's questions and doing their homework because they get it, it's all clear and it all makes sense to them, while those who struggle and don't understand the lesson hate it, they never get their homework right, never manage to solve an equation by themselves and feel like failures. That's personally exactly what I experience when I try to meditate I just feel there is some kind of knowledge or skill that I miss in order to do it fruitfully.
The days I get deep experiences are the days where I don't feel like doing anything and I don't try to force myself to do anything, and by not doing anything I mean not doing anything at all, not going on Buddhist forums, not reading suttas, not going on my computer, not cleaning, not anything, not even meditating. I just open the window, sit and cross my legs and relax, and whatever happens happens. This usually ends up leading into a 3-4+ hour meditation.

Well this happens to me a lot, and because I don't know how to meditate properly, I just lie in bed staring at the ceiling and let my mind wander for hours. That's a really nice feeling too but I doubt it has the same result.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by lostitude »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:38 pm
Not a very useful dream, because:

1. That won't happen
You don't know that! :tongue:
Now, I don't want to go too far off on this tangent other than to reaffirm the validity of what DooDoot stated earlier about the unsuitability of "running" as a metaphor, and that (as per the sutta quote above) it is the cessation of action, that is both the path and the goal.
But i don't think it is a paradox to develop actions leading to cessation. Otherwise one could say that the advice given by the Buddha on certain types of meditation practices go counter to the overall aim of "not doing anything".

My original question was precisely about this gradual process. Granted, the Buddha provides guidance, but I don't find it very developped. It is definitely not a step-by-step, meditation for dummies guidebook. It makes me feel like I'm supposed to jump from one step to the one above, with a 3-meter leap I'm supposed to take. The huge gap between the two steps is the problem. Is there really nothing other than trial and error, to make that leap?

To reuse the jump analogy, if you can't jump high enough your coach will give you easier exercises to teach you proper jumping form, then he might realize your problem is muscle weakness so he will give you strength exercises, after which maybe you still lack a bit of balance so he will have you improve that too, etc. until all the conditions are met for a proper jump and then you can jump. But if he just told you, keep trying to jump until you succeed, it's probably going to lead to nowhere. And you know it before even trying, so you don't even feel like trying.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by justindesilva »

There are many types of buddhists that vary from one another. Yet there is one common ground in all. That is FAITH (sadda) in damma. All buddhists start with five precepts of buddhism , which follows strengnthening of budda damma by experience and results.
But five precepts must be followed practically with understanding and it is like peddlong a raft better and better with experience in deep waters, after starting in shallow waters. Results of following five precepts is assured to bring results in social life too.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by JohnK »

I hear you about math class and losing motivation because you just don't know how to do it right.
I like Focused and Fearless by Shaila Catherine -- very clear with lots of exercises to help you get it right.
The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa is a very step-by-step meditation guide.
Or try Thanissaro Bhikkhu's guided meditation recording at dhammatalks.
Pick something and stick with it.
Just my 4 cents.
(w/o your personal jumping coach, you'll still have to do some of your own diagnosing and trial and error.)
Pretty sure staring at the ceiling and drifting is not it. :)

Edit -- Unless your "drifting" is actually this:
Stay mindful, monks, and alert. This is our
instruction to you all. And how is a monk mindful? There is the case where
a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful
—putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains
focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves—ardent,
alert, & mindful—putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
This is how a monk is mindful.
And how is a monk alert? There is the case where feelings are known to the
monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts
are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they
subside. Discernment [vl: perception] is known to him as it arises, known
as it persists, known as it subsides. This is how a monk is alert. So stay
mindful, monks, and alert. This is our instruction to you all.
SN 47:35
This is pasted from Thanissaro's Wings.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
2600htz
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by 2600htz »

Hello:

The main difficulty of buddhism today is getting the right interpretation of the practice.
Sure, everyone agrees on the basics, but when it comes to detail, there are core concepts that have diversity of opinions, and each interpretations leads to different results.

So you depend on some degree of good luck, that is of paying attention to some interpretation that turns to be right, and B, having the maturity and merit to be able to penetrate that same teaching (true dhamma).

The dhamma is already "hard to see, beyond the scope of conjecture", but the practice itself is "visible here and now, immediately effective". Its just that now people have a lot more chances of not really be doing buddhism, but something else. But thats the way it is.

Regards.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Bundokji »

In my opinion, a structured way of practice makes understanding the four noble truths more difficult and can easily turn into a distraction. The distraction happens by focusing on and being too involved into the necessary steps that one should take to reach the goal, overlooking the underlying process which moves us around whether we think of it as "practice" giving it a certain status, or any other activity.

It is therefore useful, in my view, to remind ourselves that the teachings themselves are another phenomena appears in our conscious experience but with a special function. Thinking of the teachings as another phenomena requires the practitioner to be well anchored into himself/herself, not necessarily seeking authority or guidance, but seeing and evaluating how the teachings affect the individual mind.

I also think that what brings joy to the practice and makes it less difficult is natural curiosity. A curious mind is less likely to condemn, and usually condemnation turns into further distortion which will cause more stress, entanglement and effort. Also seeing the world as a limited whole helps the mind to investigate how reality is constructed, hence if you are naturally a system builder that would give you an advantage.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by sentinel »

Difficult .
Probably , one of the thing is having a lower intelligence person it would be very hard to walk the path because without prior proper understanding , how one is going to start the practise ?

Is there any sutta ever mentioning Dumb person successful in attaining arahant state ?

If by faith alone one could attain sotapanna that would be very encouraging .

What I see is members in this forum many people are very intelligent (except me) , well versed in dhamma texts , good understanding , skillful virtues , even already achieved jhāna and could be a sotapanna .

One example , if one asking a question in this forum , but , other people are discouraging your self in certain way , it would be difficult to continue to learn dhamma , what more to practise ?
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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

2600htz wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:42 pm Hello:

The main difficulty of buddhism today is getting the right interpretation of the practice.
Yes, and the number of subsets, schools, interpretations, or whatever is multiplying on the "correct" way to be a Theravadin Buddhist. Not to mention the Mahayana and the Tibetanist schools.

By throwing out tradition (the commentaries and abhidamma for example) a precedent is set that if you don't agree with something, you discard it, proclaiming yourself as a 'pristine' Buddhist.

This will almost assuredly lead to complete dilution over time: if you don't like a translation, for example, discard it, write your own.

If you don't like a teaching: reinterpret it to mean something completely different, like buddadhasa does.

DooDoot wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:33 am
Manopubbangama wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pmUntil we reach stream-entry, attempting to give a semantic definition of Nibanna is absolutely worthless.
Unless "you" are a stream-enterer, the above view appears to invalidate itself as "absolutely worthless".

Do you think someone who practices wrong livelihood can be a stream-enterer?

Bundokji wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:05 pm
I also think that what brings joy to the practice and makes it less difficult is natural curiosity. A curious mind is less likely to condemn, and usually condemnation turns into further distortion which will cause more stress, entanglement and effort. Also seeing the world as a limited whole helps the mind to investigate how reality is constructed, hence if you are naturally a system builder that would give you an advantage.


I like this statement a lot. Thank you. :anjali:
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DooDoot
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:49 amBy throwing out tradition (the commentaries and abhidamma for example) a precedent is set that if you don't agree with something, you discard it, proclaiming yourself as a 'pristine' Buddhist.
Interesting idea but sounds like it does not accord with what the Buddha taught. When the Buddha was passing away, he said to Ananda his teaching was complete and nothing extra was required.

In fact, I recall we have discussed the Dhamma Refuge before. Not only does the Dhamma Refuge say the true Dhamma is visible in the here & now; it also says the Dhamma is "perfectly spoken" by the Lord Buddha. Given the Lord Buddha spoke the Dhamma perfectly, why would refuge in another teacher be required? :shrug: MN 115 unambiguously says only a person of wrong view would take refuge in another teacher, such as taking refuge in commentaries, abhidhamma, mahasi sayadaw or buddhadasa. Take up your arguments with MN 115. If you don't like a teaching in MN 115, reinterpret it to mean something completely different. ;)
They understand: ‘It’s impossible for a person accomplished in view to acknowledge another teacher.

‘ṭṭhānametaṃ anavakāso yaṃ diṭṭhisampanno puggalo aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddiseyya, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti;

But it’s possible for an ordinary person to acknowledge another teacher.

ṭhānañca kho etaṃ vijjati yaṃ puthujjano aññaṃ satthāraṃ uddiseyya, ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:43 am

In fact, I recall...
Thanks for sharing your views on that, I trust you don't rely on the hermeneutics of buddhadasa in the least bit, but only the Suttas (which in a previous thread you claimed there is no proof the that Buddha spoke) but can you please answer the question:

DooDoot wrote: ↑
Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:33 am

Manopubbangama wrote: ↑
Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:58 pm
Until we reach stream-entry, attempting to give a semantic definition of Nibanna is absolutely worthless.

Unless "you" are a stream-enterer, the above view appears to invalidate itself as "absolutely worthless".

Do you think someone who practices wrong livelihood can be a stream-enterer?
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