Is buddhism difficult? Why?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
lostitude
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Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by lostitude »

Hello,

Faced with my own lack of motivation to practice amidst the constant sources of distraction in my daily life, I often find myself dreaming about having my own personal arahant teacher who would guide me to liberation by simply telling me "now you do this" and "now you do that" and all I'd have to do would be to follow what he says.

But is this pure fantasy? Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty? or is difficulty inherently built into the path, no matter how good your teacher, and no matter how progressive the approach, and at some point you are bound to exert some painful effort which the Buddha himself would not be able spare you?

If sadly the latter proposition is true, then where does that difficulty come from?

Thanks.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

When you run, do you run faster when you are alone or with a group of professional runners?

If the runners are all gathered together to run who will be the most admired and whose advice the most followed?

In this age, was there one Buddha who discovered the path by himself or a plethora of said beings?

How do you know when you are a "good" runner and not a "bad" runner?

We know that Sariputta achieved Nibanna in about two weeks and MahaMogallana in half that time.

They had the Buddha with them and had an immense amount of spiritual virility accumulated.

Our results are fainter, but we still need goals and discipline to avoid sloth and torpor and to meditate.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
thepea
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by thepea »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm Hello,

Faced with my own lack of motivation to practice amidst the constant sources of distraction in my daily life, I often find myself dreaming about having my own personal arahant teacher who would guide me to liberation by simply telling me "now you do this" and "now you do that" and all I'd have to do would be to follow what he says.

But is this pure fantasy?
Not only do you have an arahant to guide you but you have the Buddha the enlightened one within as a guide/teacher.
We do however have to pay attention to the teachings.
lostitude
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by lostitude »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:12 pm When you run, do you run faster when you are alone or with a group of professional runners?
In a group.
If the runners are all gathered together to run who will be the most admired and whose advise the most followed?
Hopefully me :D
The one at the front I guess?
In this age, was there one Buddha who discovered the path by himself or a plethora of said beings?
I have no idea, I haven't read enough to tell, and the answer doesn't seem so obvious to me I must say.
How do you know when you are a "good" runner and not a "bad" runner?
By being satisfied that my running technique is correct and that I'm making progress?
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:19 pm
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:12 pm When you run, do you run faster when you are alone or with a group of professional runners?
In a group.
If the runners are all gathered together to run who will be the most admired and whose advise the most followed?
Hopefully me :D
The one at the front I guess?
In this age, was there one Buddha who discovered the path by himself or a plethora of said beings?
I have no idea, I haven't read enough to tell, and the answer doesn't seem so obvious to me I must say.
How do you know when you are a "good" runner and not a "bad" runner?
By being satisfied that my running technique is correct and that I'm making progress?
Yes, me too, in a group.

But thats just you and me, I suppose. There are Buddhas that decide NOT to share their knowledge and practice alone, there are Buddhas that we have never heard about. If you were a paccekabuddha, I would assume you would not be asking the question in the initial post.

I think, and this is just my idea, discount it if you like, but you should find the defilements that abuse you the most, and whittle them down accordingly, by practicing effacement:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .nypo.html

One big issue I had was anger, and I have whittled it down quite a bit with Metta.

That issue alone has made my Dhamma practice worth it.

After you whittle away one defilement, work on the next.

I still love the female form. Beautiful, fertile, well-shaped females. I have asubha to work on this issue.

A sammāsambuddha is a buddha who is self-enlightened.

An arahant is someone who needs the help of a sammāsambuddha to awaken.

I would imagine that there are exponentially more arahants than sammāsambuddhas in the endless cycles of existence.

And regarding if Buddhism is difficult. I think it is.

Not just for you and me, but it was for the Buddha, it tooks him countless lifes to become the Buddha. Endless oceans of spilt sweat and blood to find the Dhamma.

We have cut so many throats and have had our throats sliced open so many times that we could fill all of the great oceans with the blood and it would still not equal the amount of blood spilt.

That is quite a bit of wasted energy.

So start now: even if it IS difficult.

Because the alternative is more painful and has no end in sight: no goal like the goal we have.

Start now because you may not get another opportunity like this one for a long, long time to come: the idea of falling back into lethargy is not devoid of consequences. All of us are responsible for our own kamma, there is no blaming society or anyone else.

We could be reborn in a number of hells: https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html

It is therefore our duty and in our best interest to strive on accordingly.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by JohnK »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm ...Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty? or is difficulty inherently built into the path, no matter how good your teacher, and no matter how progressive the approach, and at some point you are bound to exert some painful effort which the Buddha himself would not be able spare you?
A teacher might say "All you have to do is jump this high," but YOU are the one who has to make that happen. The teacher can't lift you up. So, you have to develop your own virtue, concentration and discernment -- and all the mental qualities that support those (the 37 Wings to Awakening -- the book I am currently reading and which is influencing my reply). https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html (Look under "Treatises.")
A teacher of a craft can show you things but you must develop the skill through your own trial and error.
If sadly the latter proposition is true, then where does that difficulty come from?
Attachment to habits and basic assumptions that you have been taught, used, and reinforced your whole life (at least) -- resistance to change even while wanting change (awakening, end of suffering, freedom). The degree of difficulty varies by an individual's kamma.

When there is conviction that "the difficulty is worth it," there is less resistance (less difficulty in the difficulty).
Notice that faith is the first item (after dukkha) in Transcendent Dependent Origination.
https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... el277.html
Last edited by JohnK on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by DNS »

Buddhism is difficult in the sense that there are a lot of societal, family, cultural pressures to not engage in ascetic / semi-ascetic practices. Modern pressures tend to advance hedonism, conformity. The Dhamma however:

1. This Dhamma is for one who wants little, not for one who wants much (appicchassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo mahicchassa).
2. This Dhamma is for the contented, not for the discontented (santuṭṭhassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo asantuṭṭhassa).
3. This Dhamma is for the reclusive, not for one fond of society (pavivittassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo saṅgaṇikārāmassa).
4. This Dhamma is for the energetic, not for the lazy (āraddhavīriyassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo kusītassa).
5. This Dhamma is for one with well-established mindfulness, not for one of confused mindfulness (upaṭṭhitassatissāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo muṭṭhassatissa).
6. This Dhamma is for the composed, not for the uncomposed (samāhitassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo asamāhitassa).
7. This Dhamma is for the wise, not for the unwise (paññavato ayaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo duppaññassa).
8. This Dhamma is for one who is free from impediments, not for one who delights in impediments (nippapañcārāmassāyaṃ dhammo nippapañcaratino, nāyaṃ dhammo papañcārāmassa papañcaratino).

(Anguttara Nikaya iv. 227)
budo
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by budo »

Either one day you will get sick of everything and the path will set in naturally without any motivation, meditation and jhanas will just happen naturally. Or you will be a Buddhist in the religious sense, where you will use Buddhism like any other religion on the superficial level, just as a label.

Imho, I believe there's no such thing as motivation. If you need to motivate yourself it means you don't really want to do it. When you really want something, do you require other's permission, approval, inspiration or guidance? No, you just do it because you want to do it.

The days I get deep experiences are the days where I don't feel like doing anything and I don't try to force myself to do anything, and by not doing anything I mean not doing anything at all, not going on Buddhist forums, not reading suttas, not going on my computer, not cleaning, not anything, not even meditating. I just open the window, sit and cross my legs and relax, and whatever happens happens. This usually ends up leading into a 3-4+ hour meditation.

Basically, it requires a existential need (or emergent feeling/restlessness) to escape, where you don't want to start up or stir up new fabrications or becoming (no desire to DO anything), you just want to BE without any expectations or demands. You don't want to do anything because it's too demanding and too stressful, so the only escape or out is to just be with yourself and feel the sun hit your skin and breath the air, that's all. Even thoughts are too stressful, noise is too stressful, existence is too stressful.

You need to have the minimalistic/ascetic feeling and restless desire to escape, that's where it all starts imho.
Last edited by budo on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Lostitude,
lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm I often find myself dreaming about having my own personal arahant teacher who would guide me to liberation by simply telling me "now you do this" and "now you do that" and all I'd have to do would be to follow what he says.
Not a very useful dream, because:

1. That won't happen
2. It detracts the focus and energy away from taking ownership and initiative or the investigation of dhammas (dhammanupassana)
lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm But is this pure fantasy? Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty? or is difficulty inherently built into the path, no matter how good your teacher, and no matter how progressive the approach, and at some point you are bound to exert some painful effort which the Buddha himself would not be able spare you?

If sadly the latter proposition is true, then where does that difficulty come from?
It may be more useful to see it this way... the Buddha or a good teacher, explains how things are, and invites us to see for ourselves. Then we look, see for ourselves, and the implications of that seeing become our wisdom (panna). When that wisdom is sufficient to give rise to the Dhamma-eye, stream-entry is achieved and the practitioner becomes self-sufficient with respect to the path. That isn't to say others cannot help, provide insights and such which may expedite the process, but that the sekha (trainee) now has enough knowledge to enable them to actualize the truth of the Dhamma.

To wit, I'd recommend reading topics such as The arising of the Dhamma-eye so you can see what factors, insights, knowledge, practices etc. give rise to the Dhamma Eye, so that you can focus your own practices on things that will lead to the self-sufficiency of the sekha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by paul »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm where does that difficulty come from?
Faced with my own lack of motivation to practice amidst the constant sources of distraction in my daily life
The difficulty comes from the fetters by which the practitioner is bound, and which must be severed. Nobody can do this but they themselves, which is obvious since only they have access to their mind, and which the Buddha has said repeatedly.

“Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you.”—-MN 19

When the practitioner has some direct knowledge, then practice becomes interesting, and they formulate a balance between conventional reality and practice. They can only process a certain amount of exposure to CR, so appropriate seclusion time must be arranged so that the factor of awareness of ‘investigation of dhammas’ can take place. This in itself is an energy factor, but it takes place on a basis of tranquillity.

“In the conditional sequence of the awakening factors, “investigation-of-dhammas” (dhammavicaya) develops out of well-established mindfulness. Such investigation-of-dhammas seems to combine two aspects: on the one hand an inquiry into the nature of experience (by taking “dhammas” to stand for “phenomena”), and on the other a correlation of this experience with the teachings of the Buddha (the “Dhamma”). This twofold character also underlies the word “investigation”(vicaya), derived from the verb vicinati, whose range of meaning includes both “investigating” and “discriminating”. Thus “investigation-of-dhammas” can be understood as an investigation of subjective experience based on the discrimination gained through familiarity with the Dhamma. Such discrimination refers in particular to the ability to distinguish between what is wholesome or skilful for progress on the path, and what is unwholesome or unskilful. This directly contrasts investigation-of-dhammas with the hindrance doubt (vicikicchã), which arises owing to lack of clarity about what is wholesome and what is unwholesome.”—-“Satipatthana”, Analayo
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by DooDoot »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pmBut is this pure fantasy? Can the path to nibbana
Nibbana is the end of suffering. It is reached by abandoning the suffering that is present in front of you.
lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:19 pmBy being satisfied that my running technique is correct and that I'm making progress?
Personally, I would not use the analogy of "running". For me, this is contrary to the path. Nibbana is reached by "stopping" rather than by "running".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by justindesilva »

lostitude wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:08 pm Hello,

Faced with my own lack of motivation to practice amidst the constant sources of distraction in my daily life, I often find myself dreaming about having my own personal arahant teacher who would guide me to liberation by simply telling me "now you do this" and "now you do that" and all I'd have to do would be to follow what he says.

But is this pure fantasy? Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty? or is difficulty inherently built into the path, no matter how good your teacher, and no matter how progressive the approach, and at some point you are bound to exert some painful effort which the Buddha himself would not be able spare you?

If sadly the latter proposition is true, then where does that difficulty come from?

Thanks.
The easy way of learning any subject is by learning the first princioles of that subject. It is the same with buddhism. The first principles of buddhism and how they function are easily accessible in paticca samuppada while the 12 nidanas can be called these principles.
They are ignorance ( of 4 noble truths) sankaras or formation owing to ignorance , vingnana, nama rupa , salayatana, phassa or contact, vedana or feeling , desires, clinging to desires, becoming of life streams, jathi ( births) & jara marana.
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by SarathW »

Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty?
Of cause, you can.
Buddhism is for every person.
It is the gradual training. One step at a time.
Start with Sila.
What is important is the persistence and patient.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by Manopubbangama »

SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:23 am
Can the path to nibbana be broken down into such small gradual steps that hopping from one step to the next becomes devoid of any difficulty?
Of cause, you can.
Buddhism is for every person.
It is the gradual training. One step at a time.
Start with Sila.
What is important is the persistence and patient.
Agreed.

Until we reach stream-entry, attempting to give a semantic definition of Nibanna is absolutely worthless.

It must be experienced firsthand.

If someone is attempting to give you a definition of Nibanna while not having mastered even the rudiments of Sila, they should not be taken seriously in the least bit and will cause much harm for themselves.

If someone wants to begin the 8-fold path, its perhaps best to begin with Right View:

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .ntbb.html
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Re: Is buddhism difficult? Why?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:02 am Personally, I would not use the analogy of "running". For me, this is contrary to the path. Nibbana is reached by "stopping" rather than by "running".
:goodpost:

A very true take on the nature of the path, that may appear counter-intuitive to some.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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