Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

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easydoesit
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Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

Post by easydoesit »

As you can see I have several more in depth questions about the 3 Intentions. I'd also like to mention that I'd very much appreciate if anyone can gift me with Dhamma by directing me towards suttas where the 3 Intentions are discussed in any detail. However I'm only interested in the 4 primary baskets, nothing against those who practice with Abhidhamma but it is just not for me. And now onto the questions:


1. What results from the Intent to cause Neither-Pleasure-Nor-Pain? Does it result in good kamma, or does it result in zero kamma and thus help end kamma entirely by not setting off a new cycle? For instance if one were to gift another with Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medicine or Dhamma
with the Intent to cause Neither-Pleasure-Nor-Pain (by Intending it help aid them in the goal of liberation - a superior act according to Dhamma I think), then would this result in good kamma or 0 kamma being accrued?

Perhaps the act does result in good kamma, but the whole point is to lose identification with anything to do with samsara and so kamma simply has no way to effect you as it rebounds when you don't identify with that kammic cycle? But then if that were the case, does it mean a highly realized person actually has no Intention? And perhaps that is why kammic fruit are so much stronger when rebounded from them. I realize this may be a bit of a doozy, would appreciate any elucidation on the subject.

2. Is it possible to have multiple of the 3 Intentions bundled into the same act? For instance, can one gift someone with Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medicine or Dhamma with both the Intent to cause Pleasure and the Intent to cause Neither-Pleasure-Nor-Pain (by intending that it both give them pleasure and aid them towards liberation from kamma), and if so what kammic fruit would result from the act?

3. My understanding is that the Buddha found that many if not most pleasures actually come with pain as well. However there are more wholesome pleasures which are emphasized in the Dhamma over and over again. For instance, maintaining a heart of Brahma Vihara towards all living beings can be considered an Intent to cause pleasure or Intent to cause Neither-Pleasure-Nor-Pain and both result in good kamma(?) (while protecting yourself from Intending harm toward others and yourself).

However my question here is that there are also types of pleasure that are more clearly bound up in Samsara. For instance sexual and romantic lust. Let's say you love someone romantically and have the intention to cause them bodily and emotional pleasure with your lust. While the Buddha would
undoubtedly say that this results in pain as well as pleasure, does it also still result in only good kamma despite knowing that? I'm guessing such is the case but would like to be sure.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

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easydoesit wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:55 pm
2. Is it possible to have multiple of the 3 Intentions bundled into the same act? For instance, can one gift someone with Food, Clothing, Shelter, Medicine or Dhamma with both the Intent to cause Pleasure and the Intent to cause Neither-Pleasure-Nor-Pain (by intending that it both give them pleasure and aid them towards liberation from kamma), and if so what kammic fruit would result from the act?
This second question would appear to be answered by this section from AN 4.235:
And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result
The whole sutta might help with your other question:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

in particular with the kamma which leads to the end of kamma (liberation).

In the case of your final example of wishing to cause bodily and emotional pleasure in someone that you lust for, the normal reason for such a wish is that it intensifies ones own pleasure, an excited partner being more desirable than a passive or luke-warm one. As such, it would merely be kamma arising from lust or greed, and nothing special.
easydoesit
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Re: Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

Post by easydoesit »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:43 pm This second question would appear to be answered by this section from AN 4.235:
And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious ... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world ... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts ... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result
The whole sutta might help with your other question:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

in particular with the kamma which leads to the end of kamma (liberation).


Thank you. This sutta does indeed seem to answer 2 of my questions. Though I think I'll need to study and examine the matter more to really get my head around it. If anyone can think of any other suttas pertaining to the 3 Intentions I'd very much be interested. I've found it helpful in my understanding to sometimes have a matter approached from different angles.
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:43 pm In the case of your final example of wishing to cause bodily and emotional pleasure in someone that you lust for, the normal reason for such a wish is that it intensifies ones own pleasure, an excited partner being more desirable than a passive or luke-warm one. As such, it would merely be kamma arising from lust or greed, and nothing special.
I think maybe what is confusing me is if I were to perform an act with an intent purely to give and receive pleasure in an act of lust, in the back of my mind I know that this inevitably brings Dukkha with it. So would this not cause bad kamma or "both light and dark" as the above sutta would say? Or is it just pure "light kamma" but "light kamma" just happens to be a part of Samsara as well.

I'm just finding it a bit unclear how I can tell as a layperson what the results of many of my actions would actually be. Things are simplified for monks in that its just about letting go of everything in the end, but as a layperson what I'd like is to eventually become a Streamwinner while accrueing as much good kamma and avoiding bad as I can. And I'll have to navigate tricky things like relationships while I'm at it.
paul
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Re: Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

Post by paul »

The Buddha's classic sutta on Right Thought. Note that the analogy about the deer at the end stresses sensuality and so is related to renunciation, which in Theravada has the emphasis, and that the Buddha's main act of compassion is the instruction of the dhamma, which he can only do because he has achieved enlightenment himself:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by paul on Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

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easydoesit wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:26 pm I think maybe what is confusing me is if I were to perform an act with an intent purely to give and receive pleasure in an act of lust, in the back of my mind I know that this inevitably brings Dukkha with it. So would this not cause bad kamma or "both light and dark" as the above sutta would say? Or is it just pure "light kamma" but "light kamma" just happens to be a part of Samsara as well.
The act would certainly seem to bring further becoming within samsara:
Monks, these three are causes for the origination of actions. Which three? Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Aversion is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions.

“Any action performed with greed—born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: Wherever one’s selfhood [atta-bhāva] turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_34.html

It appears from this sutta that all forms of greed are unskillful:
Greed itself is unskillful. Whatever a greedy person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is unskillful
but the reasons are to do with harming other people due to one's greed, not the mere expression and satisfaction of desire:
Whatever suffering a greedy person — his mind overcome with greed, his mind consumed — wrongly inflicts on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is unskillful. Thus it is that many evil, unskillful qualities/events — born of greed, caused by greed, originated through greed, conditioned by greed — come into play.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

This would seem to support the view that mutually giving and receiving sexual pleasure are not in themselves harmful or to be avoided for the lay practitioner. Others might take issue with this, though, and I have seen suttas quoted from which we might infer that all lustful activities - even those with an element of care and respect - are to be avoided. But it does at least seem to be the case that sexual activity aimed at enhancing a partner's pleasure is less harmful than exploitative and coercive sex, which is absolutely proscribed.
I'm just finding it a bit unclear how I can tell as a layperson what the results of many of my actions would actually be.
I think everyone is prone to this, with the possible exception of dogmatists or those who pretend to know all the answers. I think the precepts are there to provide general guidelines for our behaviour, and that we needn't worry too much about the details of the outcomes. My hope is that as we keep the precepts and follow the other path factors, the moral landscape gets progressively clearer as we develop insight.
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Mkoll
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Re: Questions regarding the 3 Intentions.

Post by Mkoll »

This from Ajahn Thanissaro goes into right intention in some depth. It may help answer some of your questions.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/OnThe ... n0009.html
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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