What is Vibhava Tanha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

What is Vibhava Tanha?
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha?
Is the view non-existence considered Vibhava Tanha?
What is the Sutta reference relating to this teaching?
Why the desire for Nibbana is not considered Vibhava Tanha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by chownah »

SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
Why the desire for Nibbana is not considered Vibhava Tanha?
According to nyanatiloka's dictionary:
Vibhava-tanhā: 'craving for non-existence', or for self-annihilation;
I think that there are many different reasons why one might crave for nibbana but I think that some of them are in fact exhibiting craving for non-existence......they often talk about how bad life is and want to end it....
chownah

sentinel
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by sentinel »

SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
What is Vibhava Tanha?
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha?
Is the view non-existence considered Vibhava Tanha?
What is the Sutta reference relating to this teaching?
Why the desire for Nibbana is not considered Vibhava Tanha?
Perhaps , one should ask , becoming , is the outcome of craving not an object of craving ?

You tasted ice-cream before and you wanted to re-taste it again , that is craving which is continuously chasing the object after experiencing it. But , this is not same with becoming.

If you don't want to taste the ice-cream for second time , that is aversion or neutral .
But , aversion does not equal to craving .
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

pegembara
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by pegembara »

Bhava and vibhava tanha are both rooted in the delusion that a 'self' exists.
The former is the desire for that 'self' to continue its existence and
the latter for that same 'self' to be annihilated due to aversion.

The wish to commit suicide would be a case of vibhava tanha.

The desire for nibbana is not based on that delusion but instead based on realising that ...
"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It has been said that Nibbana is more acceptable to an annihilationist than an eternalist.
"With regard to those brahmans & contemplatives who are of the view, of the opinion, that 'All is pleasing to me': That view of theirs is close to being impassioned, close to bondage, close to delighting, close to holding, close to clinging. With regard to those brahmans & contemplatives who are of the view, of the opinion, that 'All is not pleasing to me': That view of theirs is close to not being impassioned, close to non-bondage, close to not-delighting, close to not-holding, close to not-clinging."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

The following video (Sinhalese language) Ven. Chandakitthi said that people with Vibhava tanha are re-born in Arupa Loka.
The reason given was that People with Vibhava Tanha has the disliking for the body.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

nowheat
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by nowheat »

Has anyone found a sutta that supports the common definition of vibhavatanha as a craving for extermination or non-existence? I've been looking and not found one but y'all as a group have read far more suttas than I have.

Srilankaputra
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by Srilankaputra »

nowheat wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:01 am
Has anyone found a sutta that supports the common definition of vibhavatanha as a craving for extermination or non-existence? I've been looking and not found one but y'all as a group have read far more suttas than I have.
Hi nowheat,

How about this sutta?

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “Overcome by two viewpoints, monks, some human & divine beings adhere, other human & divine beings slip right past, while those with vision see.

“And how do some adhere? Human & divine beings enjoy becoming, delight in becoming, are satisfied with becoming. When the Dhamma is being taught for the sake of the cessation of becoming, their minds do not take to it, are not calmed by it, do not settle on it or become resolved on it. This is how some adhere.

“And how do some slip right past? Some, feeling horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with that very becoming, relish non-becoming: ‘When this self, at the break-up of the body, after death, perishes & is destroyed, and does not exist after death, that is peaceful, that is exquisite, that is sufficiency!’ This is how some slip right past.

“And how do those with vision see? There is the case where a monk sees what’s come to be as what’s come to be. Seeing what’s come to be as what’s come to be, he practices for disenchantment with what’s come to be, dispassion toward what’s come to be, cessation of what’s come to be. This is how those with vision see.”1
Those, having seen
what’s come to be
as what’s come to be,
and what’s gone beyond
what’s come to be,
are released in line
with what’s come to be,
through the exhaustion of craving
for becoming.
If they’ve comprehended
what’s come to be,
and are free from the craving
for becoming & non-,
with the non-becoming
of what’s come to be,
monks come
to no further becoming.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti49.html
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

nowheat
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by nowheat »

Srilankaputra: Thanks for that. It is an unusual take on it, isn't it. I think I will spend a little time working on translating it (still a beginner, takes me a while!). Will get back with y'all after I've done that, and keep checking this thread in the meantime.

SarathW
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:46 am
nowheat wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:01 am
Has anyone found a sutta that supports the common definition of vibhavatanha as a craving for extermination or non-existence? I've been looking and not found one but y'all as a group have read far more suttas than I have.
Hi nowheat,

How about this sutta?

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “Overcome by two viewpoints, monks, some human & divine beings adhere, other human & divine beings slip right past, while those with vision see.

“And how do some adhere? Human & divine beings enjoy becoming, delight in becoming, are satisfied with becoming. When the Dhamma is being taught for the sake of the cessation of becoming, their minds do not take to it, are not calmed by it, do not settle on it or become resolved on it. This is how some adhere.

“And how do some slip right past? Some, feeling horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with that very becoming, relish non-becoming: ‘When this self, at the break-up of the body, after death, perishes & is destroyed, and does not exist after death, that is peaceful, that is exquisite, that is sufficiency!’ This is how some slip right past.

“And how do those with vision see? There is the case where a monk sees what’s come to be as what’s come to be. Seeing what’s come to be as what’s come to be, he practices for disenchantment with what’s come to be, dispassion toward what’s come to be, cessation of what’s come to be. This is how those with vision see.”1
Those, having seen
what’s come to be
as what’s come to be,
and what’s gone beyond
what’s come to be,
are released in line
with what’s come to be,
through the exhaustion of craving
for becoming.
If they’ve comprehended
what’s come to be,
and are free from the craving
for becoming & non-,
with the non-becoming
of what’s come to be,
monks come
to no further becoming.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Iti/iti49.html
Thanks SP
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhava Tanha?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha?
My impression is the above question is invalid. My impression is rebirth is generally about morality (results of actions towards others) rather than mere thoughts. The above question seems to be ignoring the teachings. Instead of abandoning vibhava tanha as the Buddha taught, the above question seems to be creating eternalism from vibhava tanha.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

“And how do some slip right past? Some, feeling horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with that very becoming, relish non-becoming: ‘When this self, at the break-up of the body, after death, perishes & is destroyed, and does not exist after death, that is peaceful, that is exquisite, that is sufficiency!’ This is how some slip right past.
What is the meaning of "Slip right past"?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:56 am
What is the meaning of "Slip right past"?
Definitions for atidhāvati
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
atidhāvati
pr. 3 sg.
runs past, outstrips; goes too far; goes against, transgresses.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
atidhāvati
to run past, to outstrip or get ahead of SN.iii.103; SN.iv.230; MN.iii.19; Iti.43; Mil.136; Snp-a.21.

https://suttacentral.net/define/atidh%C4%81vati
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Srilankaputra
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by Srilankaputra »

SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:56 am
“And how do some slip right past? Some, feeling horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with that very becoming, relish non-becoming: ‘When this self, at the break-up of the body, after death, perishes & is destroyed, and does not exist after death, that is peaceful, that is exquisite, that is sufficiency!’ This is how some slip right past.
What is the meaning of "Slip right past"?

They slip right past the goal. The goal is bhava nirodha!
Such a view as above does not release one from bhava.

imo
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by DooDoot »

Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:13 am
They slip right past the goal. The goal is bhava nirodha! Such a view as above does not release one from bhava.
To me, the above can be said about the eternalist view.
SarathW wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:56 am
"Slip right past"?
Personally, I prefer John Ireland's translations of:
And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back?

How, bhikkhus, do some overreach?

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
Above, the holding back (of the eternalists) sounds far worse than the overreaching of the annihilations. I recall there is a sutta (which the member DaveRupa often posted) where the doctrine of annihilationism is regarded as the best for dispassion of the non-Buddhist doctrines.

So what does it mean to "overreach"? Its probably similar to using a blunt hammer to cut down a tree instead of a sharp axe. But at least it is better than not even trying to cut down the tree (of dukkha) and continuing to rejoice in worldly existence.
SarathW wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:17 am
What is the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha?
I recall there is a sutta where the doctrine of annihilationism is regarded as the best for dispassion of the non-Buddhist doctrines. Therefore, it seems the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha is an unrefined dispassion or imperfect Nibbana.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

SarathW
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Re: What is Vibhava Tanha?

Post by SarathW »

Therefore, it seems the destination (rebirth) of a person with Vibhaba Tanha is an unrefined dispassion or imperfect Nibbana.
Now you are slandering Buddha.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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