Ananapasati in Buddhism different from the other ascetics Ananapasati ?

[sentinel]

Greetings ,

Would you say mindfulness of breathing in Buddhism different from the other ascetics Ananapasati ?
Do you find other ascetics practice four immeasurable prior to Buddhism ?
What do you find if there is any differences ?

[form]

What do u mean by other ascetics? Yogi and taoist?

[sentinel]

FYI ,

So, here's an example to compare with Buddhism mindfulness of breathing . What is your view ?

According to Jain religion in the Avasyaka Sutra , It states that during Pratikraman, the training in mindfulness of breathing , one should observe a particular number of breaths that depends upon the kind of Pratikraman performed.

Pratikraman is introspection . Pratikramana is the combination of two words, Pra meaning "return" and atikramana meaning "violation". Literally, it means "returning from violations".

During breathing practices, it is preferable to breathe in and out through our nose, if possible. At the start of any breathing exercises, take a few moments to notice our natural unaltered breath. Observe our habitual breathing patterns. What parts of our body expand and contract as one breathe? While inhaling, the belly and chest should expand and they should contract with exhaling. Does our breath feel shallow or deep, rough or smooth? Try and make our breathing soft, smooth and even — calm and without any strain. While breathing, mind may get distracted, jumping from one thought to next.

Therefore , one way to control our mind is to assign a length to our breath by silently counting as one breathe — inhale 1,2,3,… and exhale 1,2,3,… Adjust the speed of our counting to match the natural length of our breath so one can breathe with the least possible effort. Without full awareness of breathing, there can be no development of meditative stability and understanding.

[form]

I do not know aboout jain meditation method on breath. I only know yogi deals with prana on breath, taoist on chi.I did come across a video from Bhikkhu Analayo where he mentioned counting of breath is not in the suttas, but it does not mean it cannot be used or something.

Where did u see in the suttas where other schools had foundation of mindfulness also? From the suttas on wanderers in SN, where many that have good foundation in meditation already before talking to the Buddha, after their encounter within a very short time they completed the final stage. And their enquiries with the Buddha are not about how to meditate.

[2600htz]

Hello:

Of course.
Anapanasati is not "breath meditation".
"I will breath in calming bodily fabrication, i will breath out calming bodily fabrication", thats what one trains when doing anapanasati.

Regards.

[budo]

I don't know about other ascetics other than the yoga sutras of patanjali, and they view the breath as a body and mind conditioner just like in Buddhism, and they also have the 8 jhanas. The only difference is that they see the jhanas as a means to Atman, whereas in Buddhism you're supposed to see the jhanas as just another conditioned and impermanent phenomena.

Aside from that they have the same virtues, and almost identical noble eightful path as Buddhism, they're closer to Theravada Buddhism than Mahayana is.

I would say the "eternal citta" thai forest folks are better off following the Patanjali Yoga Sutras than Buddhism, which they call "the cosmic soul" instead of eternal citta.

[form]

Hello:

Of course.
Anapanasati is not "breath meditation".
"I will breath in calming bodily fabrication, i will breath out calming bodily fabrication", thats what one trains when doing anapanasati.

Regards.

There are some commentaries note in bhikkhu bodhi's translation, regarding breath coming to a stop in the fourth jhana, so it may not be just about breath in and out to condition bodily signs.

From materials in SN on enlightenment factors, there comes the balancing act on the enlightenment factors seems to be the next step and jhanic levels do not remain at one but alternated.

[justindesilva]

Greetings ,

Would you say mindfulness of breathing in Buddhism different from the other ascetics Ananapasati ?
Do you find other ascetics practice four immeasurable prior to Buddhism ?
What do you find if there is any differences ?

MN 44 ( culavedella sutta) and paticcasamuppada has refererence to in & out breathing as kaya ( body).
Sankara referred to as kayasankara and vacisankara is in relation to and with in and out breathing or inhalation and exhalation. All aspects related to body of living becomes kaya. This aspect of in & out breathing is only explained only in budda sutta and not anywhere else.
Yoga meditation is different from anapanasati of budda sutta.

[sentinel]

I do not know aboout jain meditation method on breath. I only know yogi deals with prana on breath, taoist on chi.I did come across a video from Bhikkhu Analayo where he mentioned counting of breath is not in the suttas, but it does not mean it cannot be used or something.

Where did u see in the suttas where other schools had foundation of mindfulness also? From the suttas on wanderers in SN, where many that have good foundation in meditation already before talking to the Buddha, after their encounter within a very short time they completed the final stage. And their enquiries with the Buddha are not about how to meditate.

Hi there form , pls refer to below.

Accompanied by Lovingkindness

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.54/en/bodhi

We too, friends, teach the Dhamma to our disciples thus: ‘Come, friends, abandon the five hindrances … all as above … dwell pervading the entire world with a mind imbued with lovingkindness … compassion … altruistic joy … equanimity … without ill will.’ So, friends, what here is the distinction, the disparity, the difference between the ascetic Gotama and us, that is, regarding the one Dhamma teaching and the other, regarding the one manner of instruction and the other?”

[form]

Thanks james. Very interesting content.

Seems like some other sects have the same jhanas. It is just the difference in the views. Like could be the Buddha learned their methods earlier to achieve concentration and used the concentration to breakthrough. That is what i think.

[2600htz]

Hello:

Of course.
Anapanasati is not "breath meditation".
"I will breath in calming bodily fabrication, i will breath out calming bodily fabrication", thats what one trains when doing anapanasati.

Regards.

There are some commentaries note in bhikkhu bodhi's translation, regarding breath coming to a stop in the fourth jhana, so it may not be just about breath in and out to condition bodily signs.

From materials in SN on enlightenment factors, there comes the balancing act on the enlightenment factors seems to be the next step and jhanic levels do not remain at one but alternated.

Hello:

I dont agree with the idea that the breath comes to a stop in the fourth jhana.
What i think happens is that "breath is a thorn" in the fourth jhana (AN 10:72). Meaning that because breath is a "body among bodies" (MN 118), and in the fourth jhana the perception of the body starts to go away as people go deeper and start transitioning to arupa jhanas (strictly mental realms), the breath seems to dissapear, its too coarse, i mean you don´t pay so much attention to the breath (just like with any other part of your body, because there is no tension, attention goes to the head and becomes a mental realm).

Going back to topic, if he trains: "calming bodily fabrication" is not conclusive enough, the next step is: he trains "calming mental fabrication".
The point is that when doing buddhist anapanasati, the whole time people should be training "calming this, or calming that". That instruction is not found in any other ascetic practices, just like pranayamas, holding breaths, counting, attention to nostrils, etc. is not found in any sutta.

Regards.

[form]

Hi 2600hz,
Thanks for the clearly referenced reply.

Anapasati consists of noting breathing long, breathing short, fast or slow. It is an indication of the relaxation state of the mind. When the mind is in very relax state, breath will be long and very slow very very slow till it is hard to detect, as it is a vital sign it will be present unless the person is dead. Only in that state, conditioning of the mind can be successfully conditioned (sutta said it is malleable).

Someone ever suggested he tried to use heart beat instead of breathing as the object of meditation, but that will be too coarse an object to be used successfully.

[chownah]

Someone ever suggested he tried to use heart beat instead of breathing as the object of meditation, but that will be too coarse an object to be used successfully.

I think that using the heart beat does not work like the breath works because the breath has two systems by which it can be regulated one being an automatic system (like when you are sleeping or when you are not thinking about breathing) and one being control by directed thought (like when you are wanting to focus the mind in meditation and you consciously manipulate your breath).

I think that in meditation we often start by conscious manipulation of the breath to establish a degree of relaxation and then when successfully reaching concentration the conscious manipulation does not arise and the automatic aspect of breathing arises as sole controller......I think this is what "calming bodily formations" is all about....I think it is about calming the conscious control and concern for the breath.....I think that when they talk about the breath ceasing in deeper states what they are talking about is the conscious control and concern for the breath has ceased......breathing there is but no one who is breathing so with respect to the delusional sense of self the breathing has stopped.

I think that discerning when the breath is being consciously controlled with attention and when it is not provides a potent comparison and for some people clearly exposes the difference between what happens when the delusional sense of self is operative and when it does not arise.

In summary, I think that the essential reason why breath is such a powerful tool for ending suffering arises from the very fact that it has those two ways of functioning......the heart does not have both.
chownah

[form]

Chownah, i believe so.

[DooDoot]

Ananapasati in Buddhism different from the other ascetics because it uses Samma Sati (Right Mindfulness). Right Mindfulness remembers to keep Right View in the mind, which keeps the mind free from craving & attachment.

One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness.

MN 117