Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Spiny Norman »

bodom wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:11 pm The breath is tied to the body and the body to the breath. If the breath is calm the body will naturally be calm as a result and vice versa. You cannot separate the two they condition one another. I never understood the distinction that is made in the commentaries between the breath "body" and the entire physical body.

:namaste:
I think it depends what we're paying attention to. Initially we can tightly focus attention on the bodily sensations of breathing, then we can broaden out attention, in this case to include other bodily sensations.

I view the four tetrads as a version of satipatthana, using the breath for continuity.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Spiny Norman »

SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:38 am
Calming the
bodily formation, I shall breathe in,’ thus he
trains himself; ‘calming the bodily formation, I
shall breathe out,
Isn't this sentence proves that in and out breath is not only the bodily formation?
Yes, and clearly breathing is only one of the bodily formations. Another one I use regularly is the sensations due to weight/gravity, the feelings of pressure.
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SarathW
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by SarathW »

What was the issue of confusion for me is that everyone seems to translate step 4 of anapana as calming "bodily formations" (kaya sankhara) which suggest there are other important kaya sankharas besides the in breathing and out breathing.
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SarathW
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by SarathW »

A graphic description of how meditation develop.
Sorry, this Video in Sinhalese language but you can just browse to see the pictures.
Instructions wise there is nothing new.

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SarathW
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by SarathW »

Following video (Sinhalese language) explain Anapanasati based on seventeen thought moment of Abhidhamma.

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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:52 amI can't agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation.
VBB's explanation sounds fine to me.
SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:59 amKaya Sankhara is not limited to the in an out breath.... My question is why it does not include other bodily fabrications.
Obviously it is limited to the in an out breath in Anapanasati. When a meditator is sitting cross-legged with back erect, obviously they cannot engage in any unwholesome bodily actions (such occurs in those kamma suttas where kaya sankhara is used to described bodily kamma).
SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:07 pmWhat I am saying why did Buddha use the word "calming bodily fabrication" instead of "calming the in-out breath"? The calming bodily fabrications seems to have a wider meaning.
The kaya-sankhara is the breath - per MN 44. MN 117 refers to two sorts of dhamma: noble dhamma and puthujjana dhamma. MN 44 is noble dhamma.
SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:18 amSay for instance if we teach Anapanasti to a murderer in the prison. In which point he contemplate on his previous bodily action?
Recollection of pubbe nivasa (past abodes) is after 4th jhana (unless it is Mahayana). Therefore, in prison, teach the prisoner the Buddha forgives them of their sins and to forget the past & not long for the future. Teach the prisoner MN 131 (until they reach 4th jhana).
SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:26 amI am not concern at 3rd step on the 1st tetrad, unless there is a connection between the third and the fourth.
3rd & 4th step cannot be separated. There is rupa-kaya and nama-kaya. The breathing conditions (sankhara) both the rupa & nama kaya. For example, if the breathing is calm; the body & mind are calm. If the breathing is agitated; the body & mind are agitated. 3rd step is experiencing all kaya, i.e., experiencing how the breathing, body & mind interrelated with each other. It is in the 3rd step you understand what the term "kaya sankhara" means. Therefore, the 4th step cannot be understood without the 3rd step.
SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:40 amIn and out breathing is bodily fabrication does not mean it exclude other bodily fabrications.
The kamma suttas using the term "kaya sankhara & mano sankhara" are not noble right view yet you seem to be giving the mundane (puthujjana) suttas preeminence over the supramundane (noble). MN 118 Anapanasati Sutta refers to a Noble Sangha. MN 118 Anapanasati Sutta is Noble Dhamma.
SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:38 am
Calming the
bodily formation, I shall breathe in,’ thus he
trains himself; ‘calming the bodily formation, I
shall breathe out,
Isn't this sentence proves that in and out breath is not only the bodily formation?
No. The Buddha did not use the term "bodily formation". The Buddha did not speak in English. "Bodily formation" is only a translation. I think you need to read MN 44 to examine the meaning of the three sankhara (kaya, vaci & citta). :reading:
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Pondera
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by Pondera »

Air Kasina :spy: that’s what the “breath-body” is.
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SarathW
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Re: Question 4 re- MN118 Anapanasati Sutta

Post by SarathW »

. When a meditator is sitting cross-legged with back erect, obviously they cannot engage in any unwholesome bodily actions
New topic created.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33224
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