Anicca not impermanence

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khemindas
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Anicca not impermanence

Post by khemindas »


SarathW
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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by SarathW »

Hi Bhante
We had a lengthy discussion on this topic in Sutta Central and in DW here.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by Sam Vara »

The main thread about this site is here:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&start=30

and the discussion of Pali terms begins on page 3. "Anicca" features somewhere in the fifty pages (!) and Venerable Pesala and Venerable Dhammanando appear to have shown why this form of linguistic revisionism is very badly wrong.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by justindesilva »

Instead of debating over letters threre are other meaningful ways of understanding anicca.
Perhaps with the meanings and analysis of sabbe sankara anicca & aniccawata sankara we can view that desire does not come to explain anicca.
Further it can also be ecplained that anicca means momentary change of energy or it is conservation of energy .
Another dialogue by a highly educated bikku showed that in this case in anicca the actual letter that has to be used
is cha written like ' ja' in sinhalese and that is the mistake.

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khemindas
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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by khemindas »

So, after analyzing this neo-Lankan idea, that Anicca allegedly is not impermanence, I decided, as always, to turn to the suttas. I did not find the definition of the word anicca in suttas, but I found another way to figure out what Anicca is, for this we can refer to the suttas in which the word anicca goes along with other words to underline the meaning. And what are these words? So there are the following words going along with the word anicca: painful, subject to change, passive, changeable, conditioned, arisen dependent, subject to destruction, extinction, termination, impersonal, you should not cling to it, subject to destruction, disintegration, extinction, termination, unsatisfactory, illness, boil, [poisoned] arrow, disaster, illness, alien, decaying, empty, created from aging and death, the source of the disease, perishable, flowing, which can't avoid changing.
I think there is no need to continue, it obviously follows from these synonyms that Anicca is impermanence rather than inability to maintain, and even if anicca would be inability to maintain, then this argument says if the cancer is impermanent it turns out to be suffering, we can apply to the phrase if cancer is unable to maintain, then it turns out suffering as well. It turns out the same discrepancy. And the thing is that the word anicca cannot be applied to the characteristic of dukkha, since dukkha already comes from anicca. So, the teaching of Vaharaka Abhayaratanalankara is just another heresy that decided to advertise on an unusual approach and a patriotic - national idea.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by form »

Inability to cont. will be too clumsy to be explained dharma even it is more actual. Words are maybe no good to describe reality, but have to start from somewhere. Translations will come with distortion. All moderners who know pali are non native pali speakers.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by SarathW »

this we can refer to the suttas in which the word anicca goes along with other words to underline the meaning.
Agree.
Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta go together. If you understand any one of them you understand all three.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by Manopubbangama »

SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:22 am
this we can refer to the suttas in which the word anicca goes along with other words to underline the meaning.
Agree.
Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta go together. If you understand any one of them you understand all three.
Not necessarily.

Heraclitus wrote about anicca. Had he wrote that the logical implication of anicca is dukkha and anatta, this would have survived through Aristotle - it didn't.

As Ledi Sayadaw wrote there are epochs when the word 'anatta' is not even uttered.

Anatta is a far more radical idea to accept than anicca.

I think most people would accept the idea of anicca if put plainly that all material things are inconstant, yet the idea of accepting Anatta is implicitly bound up with the maga and phala of sotapani.

While all things that are anicca are indeed anatta, not all things that are anatta are anicca, hence the existence of Nibanna, which is not a sankhara, but is unformed, unfashioned, uncompounded.

The universality of anicca can be accepted inferentially, whereas the truth of anatta must be experienced empirically.

A slightly different constellation of teachings focusing on the 4 noble truths are about dukkha but state that dukkha exists as a direct resultant of tanha, not anicca. This is a shorthand of paticasamupada.

While all of these teachings are inextricably linked, they don't all follow that if you understand one of them you will automatically understand them all.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by cappuccino »

Manopubbangama wrote:Anatta is a far more radical idea to accept than anicca.
You see Anatta via Anicca.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by SarathW »

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:54 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:22 am
this we can refer to the suttas in which the word anicca goes along with other words to underline the meaning.
Agree.
Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta go together. If you understand any one of them you understand all three.
Not necessarily.

Heraclitus wrote about anicca. Had he wrote that the logical implication of anicca is dukkha and anatta, this would have survived through Aristotle - it didn't.

As Ledi Sayadaw wrote there are epochs when the word 'anatta' is not even uttered.

Anatta is a far more radical idea to accept than anicca.

I think most people would accept the idea of anicca if put plainly that all material things are inconstant, yet the idea of accepting Anatta is implicitly bound up with the maga and phala of sotapani.

While all things that are anicca are indeed anatta, not all things that are anatta are anicca, hence the existence of Nibanna, which is not a sankhara, but is unformed, unfashioned, uncompounded.

The universality of anicca can be accepted inferentially, whereas the truth of anatta must be experienced empirically.

A slightly different constellation of teachings focusing on the 4 noble truths are about dukkha but state that dukkha exists as a direct resultant of tanha, not anicca. This is a shorthand of paticasamupada.

While all of these teachings are inextricably linked, they don't all follow that if you understand one of them you will automatically understand them all.
Agree.
What I meant to say was understanding Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta withing the frame of four noble truths. Anicca, Dukka and Anataa are not seperate entities.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by pegembara »

Anicca and anatta isn't dukkha unless one expects what is anicca to be permanent/everlasting and takes what is anatta to be self or belonging to self.
Without anicca, there is no possibility of liberation.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:16 pm
You see Anatta via Anicca.
Not in my experience. Though of course it depends what anatta is actually negating.
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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by SarathW »

Anicca refers to the conditioned things. (not the unconditioned)
That is there is birth, continuation, and death. (Uppati, Tithi,Vipatti)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by Manopubbangama »

An ontological, compounded object has no inherent, Platonic quality called anicca, dukkha, anatta attached to them, its just that we must remind ourselves of these qualities that generally describe the object because otherwise we tend to gravitate towards thinking that many objects are nicca, sukha and atta, when in fact, they are not, and cannot be, due to their very nature, which is universal and without exceptions.

This can be experienced, as all the highest realms of mind have been explored by the Buddha, whereas Sariputta and Maha Mogalana had to infer about realms that they did not directly experience, despite reaching the most sublime and peaceful abodes.

The rest of us require a degree of faith that what we experience in this world is similar to other worlds in the sense of the universal characteristics that describe it. We can infer it regarding the totality of this current reality we are in because everything we have ever experienced conforms to these characteristics without exception.


Reality is not an "illusion" in the sense that its not there, its an illusion in the sense that our contact with things via our senses and our thoughts are as a bubble, an illusion, a mirage.

Anything that we grasp will escape our clinging, just as sand gathered under water will not remain in our hand when we reach the surface.

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Re: Anicca not impermanence

Post by auto »

Manopubbangama wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:54 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:22 am
this we can refer to the suttas in which the word anicca goes along with other words to underline the meaning.
Agree.
Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta go together. If you understand any one of them you understand all three.
While all things that are anicca are indeed anatta, not all things that are anatta are anicca, hence the existence of Nibanna, which is not a sankhara, but is unformed, unfashioned, uncompounded.

https://suttacentral.net/an9.36/en/sujato
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, extinguishment.’
So tehi dhammehi cittaṃ paṭivāpetvā amatāya dhātuyā cittaṃ upasaṃharati: ‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānan’ti.
Nibbana is an impression from when mind is applied to deathless.
Extinguishment is an sankhara(activity) but it is different kind of activity. From eating you grow but if you stop eat you start decay, you can cultivate decay as mental impression.

letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation..these are activities but as mental impression, dhamma.
Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world.
So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti. No ce āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti, teneva dhammarāgena tāya dhammanandiyā pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātiko hoti tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā.
Thanissaro translates nibbana as unbinding. I think waht you fail to see it as activity. Compounded thing is what has come into existence by piling up
,developing, growing.
Uncompunded thing is by taking apart and it doesn't exist but it "exist", that is dhamma, thinking mind, it is empty without essence.

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