Where are the arahants ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by thepea » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:02 am

Ovechkin is most certainly one. Actually maybe just a tiny bit of attachment to the cup.

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DNS
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by DNS » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:05 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:58 am
But why not a stockbroker if done ethically and detached.
Study the market do you due diligence day in day out and make trades based on your studies. Might make for a great broker. Broker simply pays no mind to other traders success or failure win some lose some , detached.
Stock brokers also do hedge and options trading where they bet (and therefore wish for) a company to plunge in value.
So it seems that this 7 day or ordain has no real substance and that it is not stated that layperson cannot become arahant and it is entirely plausible that the NHL is an arahant breeding ground.
:D What about checking your opponent by slamming him into the glass? What about the fights? Or the deceptive moves to trick your opponent?

freedom
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by freedom » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:55 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:37 am
That’s exactly my point.
And I’m saying you could hang in your home if an arahant, as you would not be attached to this as no attachment to home but could be simply practical.
However, if you simply hang in your home and never try to live without your home then if your home is burnt out or it is inhabitable by some reason then you will be in trouble because you never experience or live a homeless life. Since you are not a monk, it is not easy for you to get free supports from other lay people so you will suffer or die.

Moreover, if you still prefer that home, you still cling to it and you are not an arahant.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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xofz
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by xofz » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:49 am

We can all be our own arhat. The teachings are the most blindingly obvious aspects of life. Back to contentment with how things are and a little inner practice. Peace is the path.
becoming aware!

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:26 am

xofz wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:49 am
We can all be our own arhat. The teachings are the most blindingly obvious aspects of life. Back to contentment with how things are and a little inner practice. Peace is the path.
:goodpost:
Find the Arahnat within not without!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by AgarikaJ » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:03 am

thepea wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:07 am
But why should I believe you, this seems your personal view that arahant has different way of life.
...
Or is it the glorification of being a monk or nun that is confusing this, putting arahantship out of reach and unattainable to lay folk and only accomplished in secrecy by Buddhist monks and nuns?
The thing that makes Theravada Buddhism so unattractive to many is the very simple fact that you alone are responsible for your progress, and that the Noble Eightfold Path is, lived truly, very hard. The Buddha at least said so and demonstrated it by example.

You do not need to read very far in the biographies of some of the recent monks from which some are said to be Arahants, or at least having been able to reach some stage of attainments not usually seen even within the monastic community. Maybe there is a shortcut, maybe they did make it too difficult for themselves... but then again, maybe they did not.

In any case, they were not doing some quick half-hour meditation session squeezed between coming home from work and putting the kids to bed. In your opinion, @thepea, would what they were doing really have been possible while being a householder? Where would they have found the time?

Food for thought, if nothing else (I am sure there are many other biographies, but those are the recent three I have been reading; and to pick up on your point, no secrecy at all about what they did):
- Ajahn Chah: https://www.abhayagiri.org/media/books/ ... -08-31.pdf
- Ajahn Lee: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... eeauto.pdf
- Ajahn Mun: https://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/acariya-mun.pdf

Edit:
just because it fits nicely with the current point of discussion, from the last book, p.87:
Like a bird, the monk who practices Dhamma, living in the forest, leads a life of contentment. But it’s not easy to do, for people are social animals who enjoy living together and are attached to their homes and property. Initially, he feels a lot of resistance going out and living alone as Ãcariya Mun did all his life.

It is sort of like a land animal being dragged into the water.

Once his heart has become closely integrated with Dhamma, however, the opposite is true: he enjoys traveling by himself and living alone. His daily routine in every posture remains entirely his own, his heart unencumbered by disturbing preoccupations.

That leaves Dhamma as his preoccupation – and Dhamma promotes only contentment. The monk who is occupied solely with Dhamma has a heart that’s cheerful and wonderfully content. He is free from the kind of hindrances which cause dullness or confusion; he is empty of all defiling preoccupations. He basks in a full-fledged, natural inner peace, never having to worry that it might alter or diminish in any way.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by budo » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:38 am

I would say a good indicator of someone on the path is fearlessness applied appropriately.

Someone who is fully enlightened would not have a raise in stress, cortisol levels or heart rate meditating and living alone in the woods without shelter, in the middle of nowhere where there could be danger.

There is a sutta where the Buddha contemplates that all these brahmins cannot do that, but he could.

People who are thrill seekers enjoy the rush produced from fear, but enlightened ones do not produce fear in the first place.

thepea
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by thepea » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:45 am

AgarikaJ wrote:
The thing that makes Theravada Buddhism so unattractive to many is the very simple fact that you alone are responsible for your progress, and that the Noble Eightfold Path is, lived truly, very hard. The Buddha at least said so and demonstrated it by example.

You do not need to read very far in the biographies of some of the recent monks from which some are said to be Arahants, or at least having been able to reach some stage of attainments not usually seen even within the monastic community. Maybe there is a shortcut, maybe they did make it too difficult for themselves... but then again, maybe they did not.

In any case, they were not doing some quick half-hour meditation session squeezed between coming home from work and putting the kids to bed. In your opinion, @thepea, would what they were doing really have been possible while being a householder? Where would they have found the time?
Within my tradition one works and lives as a householder then for periods of time attend retreats where for the period of time you live exactly as s monk or nun. Begin 10 days then 20 then 30 then 45 then 60 and soon enough 90 days in complete seclusion meditating. When each session is completed you return to your home life , family and job. This is not “easy” and affords one the opportunity to explore the depths of meditation that are extremely difficult to reach outside of this secluded protected environment. If a person coming out of a 60 day period of time and reaching arahantship why could they not return to family and home life and career if these are suitable and agreeable to them.
Also I’m joking about NHL as breeding ground for arahants. Careers that are more secluded, online work, janitor, IT work, quieter jobs which can be done in majority of seclusion may be conducive, or someone may reach this in their retirement years and enjoy spending many months doing volunteer work and service to others doing meditation. I just don’t buy into the need to find a yellow robe , bowl ,shave your head , leave family , and join a Buddhist monastic community if arahant. It’s seems more plausible that to reach the subtlest depths of mind and sever the bonds that longer periods of time in seclusion are required but there are other options to monasticism in this current day and age.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by AgarikaJ » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:47 pm

thepea wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:45 am
Within my tradition one works and lives as a householder then for periods of time attend retreats where for the period of time you live exactly as s monk or nun. Begin 10 days then 20 then 30 then 45 then 60 and soon enough 90 days in complete seclusion meditating.
...
I just don’t buy into the need to find a yellow robe , bowl ,shave your head , leave family , and join a Buddhist monastic community if arahant. It’s seems more plausible that to reach the subtlest depths of mind and sever the bonds that longer periods of time in seclusion are required but there are other options to monasticism in this current day and age.
Thank you @thepea, for clarifying.

I am not disagreeing with you on the monastic aspect, especially as all the three examples of Duthanga monks whose biographies I have posted actually sought to be at the beginning of their 'careers' as far as possible from not just householder obligations, but also entanglement with distracting monastic duties and titles -- the main argument being, that also the Buddha found the Noble Eightfold Path for himself, alone, and only started to teach when he was sure of the Dhamma.

I have my doubts though, if one can shed any thought and interest in one's family for a pre-defined amount of time, coming by necessity back as a wholly changed, detached person -- also from the perspective of the family, who as a rule still would think their diminutive, petty, heedless daily issues of the utmost importance. What kind of family would accept a life without music, dance, 'garlands and flowers' and all those other social things leading the refined mind of one family member to unwholesome distraction and forcing him to regress in his attainments whenever he is together with them?

But not one human is the same as another, and just because I am unable to envision that for the members of my family or myself, it does not mean that nobody would be able to handle such a situation gracefully.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Mkoll
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by Mkoll » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:49 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:31 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:22 pm
They wouldn't be online.
I agree with your post, except for this part. Why wouldn't they be online? What better way to reach a large number of people? (I'm not referring to myself as online-arhant, of course :tongue: ).

An arahant teaching the lay people in his village is doing a lot of good, but he could reach much more people if he went online, made a Dhamma website, blog, answered questions and concerns of people on forums like DW.
Going to a public internet place, i.e. forums, facebook, instagram or any other social media, to proclaim arahantship is the equivalent (and please picture this) of some random person you've never seen before going out in the town square, standing on a soap box, and loudly proclaiming "Hear ye, hear ye! Behold ye common folk... I am an arahant! An enlightened being, higher and better than the rest of you!" If my analogy holds, the foolishness of such an action should be self-evident.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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DNS
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:09 am

Mkoll wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:49 am
DNS wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:31 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:22 pm
They wouldn't be online.
I agree with your post, except for this part. Why wouldn't they be online? What better way to reach a large number of people? (I'm not referring to myself as online-arhant, of course :tongue: ).

An arahant teaching the lay people in his village is doing a lot of good, but he could reach much more people if he went online, made a Dhamma website, blog, answered questions and concerns of people on forums like DW.
Going to a public internet place, i.e. forums, facebook, instagram or any other social media, to proclaim arahantship is the equivalent (and please picture this) of some random person you've never seen before going out in the town square, standing on a soap box, and loudly proclaiming "Hear ye, hear ye! Behold ye common folk... I am an arahant! An enlightened being, higher and better than the rest of you!" If my analogy holds, the foolishness of such an action should be self-evident.
Yes, of course. I didn't say he/she should proclaim arahantship; I said teaching, writing articles, answering questions, that's all. Some will see the benefit and wisdom of the person on their own and ask more questions, etc.

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Mkoll
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by Mkoll » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:03 am

Ah, got ya David, I conflated your post with the OP's post. I agree that an arahant could be online spreading good teachings without proclaiming their attainment. Personally, I don't envision many doing this given how much more good they could do spending their time IRL. Observing how a person acts in body via their demeanor and movements tells me more in a day than a lifetime of fancy words read online. And it inspires that much more faith. Quality over quantity.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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StormBorn
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by StormBorn » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:01 am

Mkoll wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:03 am
Ah, got ya David, I conflated your post with the OP's post. I agree that an arahant could be online spreading good teachings without proclaiming their attainment. Personally, I don't envision many doing this given how much more good they could do spending their time IRL. Observing how a person acts in body via their demeanor and movements tells me more in a day than a lifetime of fancy words read online. And it inspires that much more faith. Quality over quantity.
More retreats I do, more the clarity of my mind, I become more reluctant to engaged in online forums. If me being a worldling feels like that, I think Ariyas will be much more reluctant. Even in the suttas we can't see Ariyas get into the business of "spreading the Dhamma" like these days. Surely, they share the Dhamma, when they meet an eager student. As you said what matters is the quality rather than the quantity.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

SarathW
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:40 am

Even in the suttas we can't see Ariyas get into the business of "spreading the Dhamma" like these days.
Buddha is the greatest missionary of his time
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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equilibrium
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by equilibrium » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:59 pm

Pecceka-Buddha:
An independently enlightened one / separately / individually enlightened one. (Silent/Private Buddha)

This is a term for an Arahat who has realized Nibbana without having heard the Buddha's doctrine from others. He comprehends the 4 NT individually, independent of any teacher, by his own effort.

According to tradition, they do not arise while the teaching of a perfect Buddha is known.

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