Where are the arahants ?

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sentinel
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Where are the arahants ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:42 pm

It seems all the arahants were in the sutta but not here in reality . Existence of arahant is a myth . It appears that None has ever seen an arahant . Where can one find an arahant ?
:coffee:

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:22 pm

There may be some in the world today, but how would you recognise them? They have no ego, so don't feel a need to talk about it. They wouldn't be online. They may not teach, they're probably in a monastery somewhere living quietly unnoticed. Arahats look the same as normal people.

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DNS
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:31 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:22 pm
They wouldn't be online.
I agree with your post, except for this part. Why wouldn't they be online? What better way to reach a large number of people? (I'm not referring to myself as online-arhant, of course :tongue: ).

An arahant teaching the lay people in his village is doing a lot of good, but he could reach much more people if he went online, made a Dhamma website, blog, answered questions and concerns of people on forums like DW.

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equilibrium
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by equilibrium » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:37 pm

One who sees
sees who sees,
sees who doesn't.

One who doesn't see
doesn't
see who sees
or who doesn't.

SarathW
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:42 pm

Before look for an Arahant look for a Sotapanna.
Before look for a Sotapanna look for a person who observes five precepts.
Before you look for the person who observes five precepts look for a person who understands true Dhamma.
Before you look for a person who understands true Dhamma look for a person who has faith in the Buddha.
Before you look for a person who has the faith on Buddha look for a person who got some righteous.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:54 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:42 pm
Before look for an Arahant look for a Sotapanna.
Before look for a Sotapanna look for a person who observes five precepts.
Before you look for the person who observes five precepts look for a person who understands true Dhamma.
Before you look for a person who understands true Dhamma look for a person who has faith in the Buddha.
Before you look for a person who has the faith on Buddha look for a person who got some righteous.
:goodpost: I loved this!

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by Virgo » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:42 pm
It seems all the arahants were in the sutta but not here in reality . Existence of arahant is a myth . It appears that None has ever seen an arahant . Where can one find an arahant ?
"The Commentary to the Sutta ³The Gotamid², in the Gradual Sayings, the
Manorathapúraní, gives an additional explanation:
³The words vassasahassam, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to
the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges
(patisambiddhas[2]). But when we take into consideration the following
thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only
developed insight and did not attain jhåna). In the next period of thousand
years (the third period) there are anågåmis (who have attained the third
stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period
of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadågåmís (who have
attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner).
In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotåpannas
(who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the
streamwinner). Thus, the saddhamma, the true dhamma, of the level of
pativedha, realization, can, according to this reckoning, last for five
thousand years. Evenso pariyatti dhamma (of the level of intellectual
understanding) can endure for five thousand years. Without pariyatti dhamma
there can be no pativedha dhamma [3]. This means that when pariyatti dhamma
has disappeared the monkhood will have changed into something else.²

It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of
thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the
excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment
will only be that of the anågåmí.
In the Sumangalavilåsiní, Commentary to the ³Dialogues of the Buddha², III,
no 28, The Faith that satisfied (Sampasådaniya Sutta), the decline of
Buddhism in the Buddha era of a former Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, has been
explained, not the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read:
³... the lineage of recluses dressed in white is not able to cause the
endurance of the dispensation since the time of the Buddha Kassapa. The
dispensation could endure only thousand years with those who have attained
the four analytical knowledges, another thousand years with those who had
the six supranatural powers (abhiññås 4), another thousand years with those
who had three knowledges (tevijjå 5), another thousand years with those who
had ³dry insight² (sukkha vipassakas), and another thousand years with those
who observe the Påtimokkha. Thus, the Dispensation declined beginning with
the penetration of the truths by the bhikkhus who came afterwards, and the
transgression of the precepts by the bhikkhus who came afterwards. Since
that time the appearance of another Buddha had no obstruction anymore [6] .

Footnotes
2. All arahats have eradicated defilements completely, but arahats have
different degrees of excellent qualities. Only the arahat with the highest
attainment has the four analytical knowledges.
3. The ³Dispeller of Delusion² (the Commentary to the Book of Analysis,
Commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts
explaining about the disappearance of the teachings. We read (431):
³For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical
understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (pativedha) and
disappearance of practice (patipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts
of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the
practice is the way....²
4.These are: magical powers, divine ear, penetration of the minds of others,
divine eye, remembrance of former existences and extinction of all
defilements.
5.These are: remembrance of former lives, divine eye, extinction of all
defilements.
6. When the dispensation has disappeared completely there are conditions for
the appearance of another Buddha."

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dha ... pics/20908

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AgarikaJ
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by AgarikaJ » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:16 am

If you read certain Thai Buddhist pamphlets, there seems to be no scarcity of recent and living Arahants; the same is true for Sri Lankan Theravadin circles. But are those really Arahants?

The Buddha seems to suggest, that you will need to make up your own mind, personally, about those individuals by observing them, meditating with them, and living with them. And even if you do that, only if you are enlightened enough to recognize their attainments, will you be able to know. This is certainly no low hurdle, but it cuts down on superfluous speculation about attainments without putting in the proper own effort.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"It's through living together that a person's virtue may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through dealing with a person that his purity may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through adversity that a person's endurance may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
"It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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DNS
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:54 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:16 am
"The Commentary to the Sutta ³The Gotamid², in the Gradual Sayings,
Correct, the Commentary says we are in a period where there can only be the potential for anagamis, not arahants.

I'm not sure I agree with that, but I do agree with the Commentaries that if a lay person becomes an arahant, he/she will ordain within 7 days or perish. The lay life and responsibilities would not work with the mind-state of an arahant. Considering this, we could dismiss any lay person claim that they are an arahant, unless they perished within 7 days.

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by thepea » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:21 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:54 pm
I do agree with the Commentaries that if a lay person becomes an arahant, he/she will ordain within 7 days or perish. The lay life and responsibilities would not work with the mind-state of an arahant. Considering this, we could dismiss any lay person claim that they are an arahant, unless they perished within 7 days.
Why couldn’t an arahant be a layperson, what exactly do you feel would conflict with state of mind?

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:43 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:21 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:54 pm
I do agree with the Commentaries that if a lay person becomes an arahant, he/she will ordain within 7 days or perish. The lay life and responsibilities would not work with the mind-state of an arahant. Considering this, we could dismiss any lay person claim that they are an arahant, unless they perished within 7 days.
Why couldn’t an arahant be a layperson, what exactly do you feel would conflict with state of mind?
See: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/milinda.pdf
The Debate of King Milinda, edited by Bhikkhu Pesala
page 138

62. The Lay Arahant
“You say that if a layman attains
arahantship he must either
enter the Order that very day or die and attain
parinibbàna.
Yet if he is unable to find a robe and bowl
and preceptor then that exalted condition of
arahantship is a waste, for destruction of life is involved in it.”

“The fault does not lie with
arahantship but with the
state of a layman, because it is too weak to support
arahantship. Just as, O king, although food protects the life
of beings it will take away the life of one whose digestion is
weak – so too, if a layman attains
arahantship he must, because of the weakness of that condition, enter the Order
that very day or die.”
A lay person has to make a living, engage in numerous transactions. It is inevitable that disputes arise from time to time regarding transactions. An arahant wouldn't be interested in that.

freedom
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by freedom » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 pm

thepea wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:21 pm
DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:54 pm
I do agree with the Commentaries that if a lay person becomes an arahant, he/she will ordain within 7 days or perish. The lay life and responsibilities would not work with the mind-state of an arahant. Considering this, we could dismiss any lay person claim that they are an arahant, unless they perished within 7 days.
Why couldn’t an arahant be a layperson, what exactly do you feel would conflict with state of mind?
A lay person is a person who wants to possess or has possession such as house, wife, son, father, mother, money, followers,...
An arahant is a person who possesses nothing (and no longer want to possess anything including the title arahant).

Therefore, when a lay person is an arahant, he no longer has any possession and no longer want to possess anything. Since he has no home, he is homeless. He may need to move around as needed. Since he has no possession, he will need to rely on others for his living (foods, lodging,...).

The best way to get his support in the old time is to put on the yellow robe. Without this yellow robe, it is hard for him to get his daily needs.

7 days maybe a symbolic number that represents a period of time. Of course, if he cannot get any support (like foods, lodging,..) after a long time, he will not be able to maintain his body, and he must die.

That's how I understand.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

form
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by form » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:32 pm

There are Chinese that believes that some of those with very very high attainments could appear to be looked like beggars (something like wanderer/homeless people) but in actual fact someone with abilities like no need to eat for significant period, psychic abilities, very high moral standards naturally etc. Can these people be arahat that may or may not teach?

thepea
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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by thepea » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:19 pm

DNS wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:43 pm

A lay person has to make a living, engage in numerous transactions. It is inevitable that disputes arise from time to time regarding transactions. An arahant wouldn't be interested in that.
But why couldn’t a layperson become an arahant and continue living in a skillful fashion. Working,shopping, cooking cleaning, raising children and interacting with others. If conflicts arise could the arahant just use skillful methods to deal with situations or simply walk away.
The Buddha ran his group teaching meditation to others and ran into many conflicting situation in his time, solved many problems answered to many people etc,,??

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Re: Where are the arahants ?

Post by thepea » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:26 pm

freedom wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:13 pm

A lay person is a person who wants to possess or has possession such as house, wife, son, father, mother, money, followers,...
An arahant is a person who possesses nothing (and no longer want to possess anything including the title arahant).

Therefore, when a lay person is an arahant, he no longer has any possession and no longer want to possess anything. Since he has no home, he is homeless. He may need to move around as needed. Since he has no possession, he will need to rely on others for his living (foods, lodging,...).

The best way to get his support in the old time is to put on the yellow robe. Without this yellow robe, it is hard for him to get his daily needs.

7 days maybe a symbolic number that represents a period of time. Of course, if he cannot get any support (like foods, lodging,..) after a long time, he will not be able to maintain his body, and he must die.

That's how I understand.
You put an end to mental suffering, you reach arahantship. Part of this realization is the wisdom that you don’t really own your house you are not defined by your house, you are not your job whether you are a janitor or a meditation teacher. This is just means for survival and contribution to society. Whether you live in a hut begging for bread or in a mansion what the difference if the attachment is gone?

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