alcohol

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
Posts: 10517
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:08 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Most of the "Buddhists" I know don't follow the five precepts.
I think if we can remove the fifth precept, many Sri Lankan men will go to the temple.
Some Sri Lankan monks even said that fifth precepts is not in Noble Eightfold Path and they are very popular.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by Nwad » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:08 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Most of the "Buddhists" I know don't follow the five precepts.
I think if we can remove the fifth precept, many Sri Lankan men will go to the temple.
Some Sri Lankan monks even said that fifth precepts is not in Noble Eightfold Path and they are very popular.
On youtube there is a Dhamma Talk of Dhammavuddho Mahathera "Characteristics of Sotapanna" where he explains (0:50 th minute) that 5th precept is not in the 8FP and actualy Sotapanna can drink. Iam against drinking but what he explains seems logic ...

SarathW
Posts: 10517
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:55 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 am
SarathW wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:08 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:51 pm
Most of the "Buddhists" I know don't follow the five precepts.
I think if we can remove the fifth precept, many Sri Lankan men will go to the temple.
Some Sri Lankan monks even said that fifth precepts is not in Noble Eightfold Path and they are very popular.
On youtube there is a Dhamma Talk of Dhammavuddho Mahathera "Characteristics of Sotapanna" where he explains (0:50 th minute) that 5th precept is not in the 8FP and actualy Sotapanna can drink. Iam against drinking but what he explains seems logic ...
I think this is a misrepresentation of Buddha's teaching.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19594&p=274956&hilit=

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&p=209622&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by Nwad » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:05 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:55 am
I think this is a misrepresentation of Buddha's teaching.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256&p=209622&hilit=
The explication he gives is that Sotapanna have Arya-sila, and Arya-sila is about Right Speech, Right Action, Right Taught where there is no words about drinking. It's the explication Ven. gives.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3302
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:56 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:34 am
On youtube there is a Dhamma Talk of Dhammavuddho Mahathera "Characteristics of Sotapanna" where he explains (0:50 th minute) that 5th precept is not in the 8FP and actualy Sotapanna can drink. I am against drinking but what he explains seems logic ...
Why is it logical? Why would clouding the mind and clouding the potential for samadhi be logical?

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by Nwad » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:03 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:56 am
Why is it logical? Why would clouding the mind and clouding the potential for samadhi be logical?
Iam not sure that Sotapanna's mind can be "drunk". And it's logic from 8NP point of view, Sotapanna has Arya sila, and there is no about drinking, so it's logical that he is capable of drinking. He is incapable of killing, stealing, lying, cheating but capable of drinking, as capable of other sensual pleasures like singing, watching tv, dancing, music etc.. imho Iam not saying that's it's Good, but that he is capable of it. And actually, if we watch in drinking as it is, there is nothing immoral in it, perhaps it's even less immoral than eating meat...

But iam not an expert ;)

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2945
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

alcohol

Post by robertk » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:42 am

THE FIRST BOOK OF
THE MINOR COLLECTION
(KHUDDAKANIKÄYA)
I undertake the training precept of abstention from any
opportunity for negligence due to liquor, wine, and besotting drink.
Shrinking, abstinence, from evil,
From besotting drink refraining,
Diligence in True Ideals:
This is a supreme good omen.
and from Commentary
Any opportunity for negligence due to liquor, urine and besotting
drink: here as to ' liquor ', there are five kinds of liquor: flour liquor,
cake liquor, rice liquor, that containing yeast, and that mixed with
condiments. Also ' wine ' is of five kinds: flower wine, fruit wine,
sugar wine, honey wine, and that mixed with condiments (Vin. iv.
110). Both these are * besotting' (majja) in the sense of causing
intoxication (madantya); or alternatively, whatever else there is
that causes intoxication, by drinking which one becomes mad (matta)
and negligent (pamatta) is called ' besotting \ The ' opportunity
for negligence' (pamädatthäna) is the choice by which one drinks,
swallows. That is so called since it is the cause for the [subsequent]
vanity (madness) and negligence (mada-ppamäda); consequently,
what should be understood as the * opportunity for negligence ' is the
choice in swallowing the liquor, wine or besotting drink, as intent to
swallow, which occurs in the body door
unlike killing-breathing-
things, etc., [whose blamability varies,] the opportunity-fornegligence-
due-to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink is always greatly
blamable. Why? Because it obstructs the Noble Ones* True Idea
by inducing even madness in a human being. That is how the
explanation should be known by blamability.
46. The fruits of abstention from the opportunity-for-negligencedue-
to-liquor-wine-and-besotting-drink are such things as swift
recognition of past, future and present tasks to be done, constant
establishment of mindfulness, freedom from madness, possession of
knowledge, non-procrastination, non-stupidity, non-drivellingness,
non-intoxication, non-negligence, non-confusion, non-timorousness,
non-presumption, unenviousness, truthfulness, freedom from
malicious and harsh speech and from gossip, freedom from dullness
both night and day, gratitude, gratefulness, unavariciousness,
liberality, virtuousness, rectitude, unangriness, possession of
conscience, possession of shame, rectitude of view, great understanding,
wisdom, learnedness, skill in [distinguishing] good from
harm, and so on
.

153. From besotting drink refraining (majjapänä ca samyamo): this
designates abstention from any opportunity for negligence (intoxication)
due to wine, liquor and besotting drink, which has already been
described (Ch. ii, § 15). This refraining from besotting drink is
called a good omen because one who drinks besotting drinks does not
know either a meaning or an idea; he ill-treats his mother and his
father and Enlightened Ones and Hermit Enlightened Ones and
Perfect Ones' disciples; here and now he encounters censure, in his
next rebirth, an unhappy destination, and in the life after that,
madness; but when a man refrains from besotting drink, he achieves
both immunity from those defects and excellence in those special
qualities that are their opposites. So that, it should be understood,
is why it is called a good omen.
they work the welfare
of their own people by support of kin and the welfare of other people
by unexceptionable actions, till, by avoiding through abstinence
from evil the hurting of others and by refraining from besotting
drink the hurting of themselves, they increase the profitable side by
diligence in True Ideals

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3302
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:23 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:03 am
But iam not an expert
Sure. Your ideas sound very 'bookish' (rather than realistic). I imagine a sotappana is capable of trifling acts of killing (such as killing ticks, mosquitoes, gadflies, etc) and i imagine a layperson sotapanna could possibly drink a small amount of alcohol at a worldly social occasion but i can't imagine a sotappana wanting to get drunk or intoxicated.

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1774
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:26 am

Nwad wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:03 am
Iam not sure that Sotapanna's mind can be "drunk". And it's logic from 8NP point of view, Sotapanna has Arya sila, and there is no about drinking, so it's logical that he is capable of drinking. He is incapable of killing, stealing, lying, cheating but capable of drinking, as capable of other sensual pleasures like singing, watching tv, dancing, music etc.. imho Iam not saying that's it's Good, but that he is capable of it. And actually, if we watch in drinking as it is, there is nothing immoral in it, perhaps it's even less immoral than eating meat...

But iam not an expert ;)
In my opinion, there are two ways of understanding morality:

1- By looking at the consequences of the action
2- By looking at the quality of mind behind the action/intention

In conventional reality, we have no access to each other's intentions, and even if we do, it is impractical to examine the intentions or the quality of mind of each individual, hence more emphasis is on the outcome of the action. Drinking can be legal in many countries, but if a drunk person causes harm to the other, he/she are not exempt from legal responsibility.

In Buddhism as i understand it, the above two are inseparable. When we act with an impure mind, suffering will follow as the Buddha taught.

Why do people drink in the first place? to release stress? to ease their existential pain? a temporary escape from every-day's problems? to overcome their shyness while interacting socially and to open up? Why would anyone wants to alter his conscious state by using a mind altering substance if his own house is in order?

If a sotappana drinks, he/she are not free from the above, and that would make this stage of awakening unworthy of attaining in the first place.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

SarathW
Posts: 10517
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: alcohol

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:37 am

I am just trying to imagine how a piss drunk Sotapanna telling someone his Ariya state.
I-a-m---a-a-a s-o-t-a-p-a-nnnn-aaaa
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
Posts: 7597
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: alcohol

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:50 am

Why don't the people who are bothered by this sotapanna conjecture just go ask some if they are able to drink alcohol or not?
If you can't find a sotapanna then I guess the only way to find out is to become one.
chownah

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1774
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: alcohol

Post by Bundokji » Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:59 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:50 am
Why don't the people who are bothered by this sotapanna conjecture just go ask some if they are able to drink alcohol or not?
If you can't find a sotapanna then I guess the only way to find out is to become one.
chownah
because that would be getting distracted by a label that means different things to different people instead of looking at the actual action and the intention behind it!
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

chownah
Posts: 7597
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: alcohol

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:59 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:50 am
Why don't the people who are bothered by this sotapanna conjecture just go ask some if they are able to drink alcohol or not?
If you can't find a sotapanna then I guess the only way to find out is to become one.
chownah
because that would be getting distracted by a label that means different things to different people instead of looking at the actual action and the intention behind it!
I think people are already distracted......I'm suggesting a way out of that distractive conjecture.
chownah

User avatar
Nwad
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Re: Interest in Dhamma - growing or slowing ?

Post by Nwad » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:22 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:23 am
Sure. Your ideas sound very 'bookish' (rather than realistic). I imagine a sotappana is capable of trifling acts of killing (such as killing ticks, mosquitoes, gadflies, etc) and i imagine a layperson sotapanna could possibly drink a small amount of alcohol at a worldly social occasion but i can't imagine a sotappana wanting to get drunk or intoxicated.
I have the opposite view ^^ I dont think that he can intentionaly kill some being, but i think that he can get drunk for sensual pleasures, till he's not free from them.
Bundokji wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:26 am
Why do people drink in the first place? to release stress? to ease their existential pain? a temporary escape from every-day's problems? to overcome their shyness while interacting socially and to open up? Why would anyone wants to alter his conscious state by using a mind altering substance if his own house is in order?
Personaly, when i used to drink alcohool in the past, i does it for dancing :tongue: Not for escape from some suffering, but to get more pleasure from music...

SarathW
Posts: 10517
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: alcohol

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:55 pm

when i used to drink alcohool in the past, i does it for dancing :tongue:
Why can't you dance without consuming alcohol?
Not every dancer consume alcohol.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Lankamed, NuanceOfSuchness and 92 guests