Where Does The World Go?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Pondera
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Where Does The World Go?

Post by Pondera »

Some say that when one is unbound, the world disappears. Others maintain that the world remains, however perception and feeling with regard to the six sense spheres is absent. What should be the conclusion? In DN 11 the following comments are made:
"'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:


Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.
So, one is mistaken to view the world as if it could cease without remainder. Form is without beginning or end. The correct interpretation is that Unbinding occurs when consciousness no longer allows form to gain a footing in ones’ mind. Thus the world remains, however it is not perceived or felt. Rather one enters and remains in Unbinding.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
SarathW
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by SarathW »

World did not go anywhere because there neve was a wold to begin with.
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.h3v9 ... d=3.1&rm=2

Say in above picture you may see the young woman and I see the old woman.
Both of those ideas are in the minds of you and me.
If I pass away, there will not be that old woman.
To start with there wasn't an old woman.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by Pondera »

Mahayana emptiness talk. The Buddha declares “this world” - as much as “Nibbana is neither this world, nor the next”. Do you not believe in Samsara? Do you not believe in the round of rebirths? Do you not believe that the six sense spheres come from name and form? There is a world. It is called Samsara and it is made of the six sense spheres as well as the four great elements.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
SarathW
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by SarathW »

Mahayana emptiness talk.
Isn't this Theravada Anatta talk?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Pondera
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by Pondera »

Theravada anatta talk is talk of “not-self”. You are declaring that the world is an illusion. Suffering is not an illusion - nor is the round of rebirth. The question is “what becomes of the world when one enters Unbinding?”. The answer is “nothing”. The only change is that there is one less being in the world to experience suffering.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
pegembara
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by pegembara »

Pondera wrote: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:23 am Some say that when one is unbound, the world disappears. Others maintain that the world remains, however perception and feeling with regard to the six sense spheres is absent. What should be the conclusion? In DN 11 the following comments are made:
"'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:


Where do water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing?
Where are long & short,
coarse & fine,
fair & foul,
name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:


Consciousness without feature,[1]
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Kevatta the householder delighted in the Blessed One's words.
So, one is mistaken to view the world as if it could cease without remainder. Form is without beginning or end. The correct interpretation is that Unbinding occurs when consciousness no longer allows form to gain a footing in ones’ mind. Thus the world remains, however it is not perceived or felt. Rather one enters and remains in Unbinding.
The 'world' doesn't go anywhere - only the dream of 'existence' ends.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
What is termed 'death' or 'final nibbana' is the permanent cessation of the 'world' or realisation of 'eternal peace'.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by auto »

where water, earth, fire, wind has no footing is jhana realms. Mental abidings. (wrong)

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an ... .than.html
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
property of deathless instead of proprety of water, earth, fire, wind. And yikes in jhana is water, earth, fire..

arupa is, there is form transcended.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space, I would develop the mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of mine — thus supported, thus sustained — would last for a long time. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I would develop the mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of mine — thus supported, thus sustained — would last for a long time.'
this approach is wrong i think.

because,

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html
"Then the Great Brahma, taking the monk by the arm and leading him off to one side, said to him, 'These gods of the retinue of Brahma believe, "There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not know. There is nothing that the Great Brahma does not see. There is nothing of which the Great Brahma is unaware. There is nothing that the Great Brahma has not realized." That is why I did not say in their presence that I, too, don't know where the four great elements... cease without remainder. So you have acted wrongly, acted incorrectly, in bypassing the Blessed One in search of an answer to this question elsewhere. Go right back to the Blessed One and, on arrival, ask him this question. However he answers it, you should take it to heart.'
you should ask the Blessed One. and take the answer to heart however he answers it.
Last edited by auto on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
dharmacorps
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Re: Where Does The World Go?

Post by dharmacorps »

Like fire unbound. Leave it at that.
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