Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:17 am

Nibbana is ending of ignorance greed hatred .
Parinibbana is ending of the aggregates .

Bhava is
sensuous existence (kāma-bhava),

fine-material existence (rūpa-bhava),

immaterial existence (arūpa-bhava).


Vibhava is annihilation of bhava .


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Therefore , an arahant abandoned ignorance greed hatred and attained Parinibbana is
Identical to Vibhava .

If an arahant wish to Terminate his/her life , as described in the sutta , does that mean arahant still have Tanha (vibhava tanha) ?

What is your view ?
:reading:

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by Volovsky » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am

654. I do not long for death; I do not long for life but I await my time, as a servant his wages.
655. I do not long for death; I do not long for life; but I await my time, attentive and mindful.

Revata, Thag

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am

Volovsky wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am
654. I do not long for death; I do not long for life but I await my time, as a servant his wages.
655. I do not long for death; I do not long for life; but I await my time, attentive and mindful.

Revata, Thag
Does Channa waited for his time ?
:reading:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:20 pm

Vibhava leads to bhava; according to the 2nd noble truth.
Now this is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.
Idaṃ kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkhasamudayaṃ ariyasaccaṃ—

It’s the craving that leads to new becoming, mixed up with relishing and lust, delight in this & that, here and there. That is,
yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ—

craving for sensual pleasures, craving to be, and craving not to be.
kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.

SN 56.11
Vibhava leads to the arising of "self-view", which is the cause for becoming.

Nibbana is the end of both bhava and vibhava, as explained in MN 140, as follows:
They neither make a choice nor form an intention for becoming or non-becoming.
So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally attain Nibbana.
anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaṃyeva parinibbāyati.

MN 140

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by Volovsky » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:26 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am
Does Channa waited for his time ?
It's a question to those who think he was an arahant when talking to Ven. Sariputta.

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2945
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by robertk » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am
Volovsky wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am
654. I do not long for death; I do not long for life but I await my time, as a servant his wages.
655. I do not long for death; I do not long for life; but I await my time, attentive and mindful.

Revata, Thag
Does Channa waited for his time ?
Volovsky has already cited the Commentary on another thread where it explained that channa was a worldling - who thought he had attained- when he used the knife.

User avatar
budo
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by budo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am
Volovsky wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am
654. I do not long for death; I do not long for life but I await my time, as a servant his wages.
655. I do not long for death; I do not long for life; but I await my time, attentive and mindful.

Revata, Thag
Does Channa waited for his time ?
Volovsky has already cited the Commentary on another thread where it explained that channa was a worldling - who thought he had attained- when he used the knife.
A commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi which conflicts with the commentary of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's

and the BK's commentary also included this

"It should be noted that this commentarial interpretation is imposed on the text from the outside, as it were. If one sticks to the actual wording of the text it seems that Channa was already an Arahant when he made his declaration, the dramatic punch being delivered by the failure of his two brother-monks to recognize this. The implication of course, is that excruciating pain might motivate even an arahant to take his own life - Not from aversion, but simply from a wish to be free from unbearable pain."

So just that people understand a complete picture.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:19 pm

Vibhava is annihilation of bhava .
Vibhavatanha is craving for non-existence. The crucial word here is craving. While vibhava is nowhere explained in the suttas, still, there is a lot about craving, which doesn't actually lead out of samsara.

I think bhavatanha is simple (but fundamental) desire to live. Desire not to live is vibhavatanha, commonly seen in suicide cases. Arahant, as we know, doesn't have both.

As for Channa, Vakkali, and Godhika - this is being discussed in nearby topic )

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:22 pm

budo wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm
robertk wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am


Does Channa waited for his time ?
Volovsky has already cited the Commentary on another thread where it explained that channa was a worldling - who thought he had attained- when he used the knife.
A commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi which conflicts with the commentary of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's

and the BK's commentary also included this

"It should be noted that this commentarial interpretation is imposed on the text from the outside, as it were. If one sticks to the actual wording of the text it seems that Channa was already an Arahant when he made his declaration, the dramatic punch being delivered by the failure of his two brother-monks to recognize this. The implication of course, is that excruciating pain might motivate even an arahant to take his own life - Not from aversion, but simply from a wish to be free from unbearable pain."

So just that people understand a complete picture.
How does one to say arahant is simply wish to free from pains, and worldling is Aversion ?!
Isn't it is Normal bodily reaction for a person irrespective of whom they are (noble or ordinary) ,
to Not able to Handle Physicality Pains ?
The only criteria counts is but Degree of Pains a person can handle .
:reading:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:24 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:26 am
Volovsky wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am
654. I do not long for death; I do not long for life but I await my time, as a servant his wages.
655. I do not long for death; I do not long for life; but I await my time, attentive and mindful.

Revata, Thag
Does Channa waited for his time ?
yes. one's time is nowhere defined as a death due to natural causes or getting killed by assasins or any other specific cause of death, it is simply the ending of life. He did as he saw fit and used the knife blamelessly, that is how it should be remembered said the Buddha.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:19 pm
Vibhava is annihilation of bhava .
Vibhavatanha is craving for non-existence. The crucial word here is craving. While vibhava is nowhere explained in the suttas, still, there is a lot about craving, which doesn't actually lead out of samsara.

I think bhavatanha is simple (but fundamental) desire to live. Desire not to live is vibhavatanha, commonly seen in suicide cases. Arahant, as we know, doesn't have both.

As for Channa, Vakkali, and Godhika - this is being discussed in nearby topic )
The question is , What is Lust , Desire , Craving ,
Is this Has to do with 5/6 sense objects only ?!
Or nothing to do with wishes to live and die?
:reading:

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:00 pm

The question is , What is Lust , Desire , Craving ,
Is this Has to do with 5/6 sense objects only ?!
Or nothing to do with wishes to live and die?
Of course it has. To live is, actually, to experience 6/12 sense bases.

James Tan
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by James Tan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:45 am

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:00 pm
The question is , What is Lust , Desire , Craving ,
Is this Has to do with 5/6 sense objects only ?!
Or nothing to do with wishes to live and die?
Of course it has. To live is, actually, to experience 6/12 sense bases.
But , to experience does not mean all experiences are Lust !
Unless , one define Lust as the intention to continue to live ?
And Lust as intention to kill one self also !

Lust , as I understand is, strong sexual desire.
:reading:

santa100
Posts: 3189
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Arahant and Vibhava Tanha

Post by santa100 » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:23 am

James Tan wrote:If an arahant wish to Terminate his/her life , as described in the sutta , does that mean arahant still have Tanha (vibhava tanha) ?
If an arahant still had Tanha, then s/he'd still have "work to be done". But arahant, by definition, is the only class of being who can declare: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.'
Now regarding the case of an arahant who wishes to terminate his life, the problem is that it still remains debatable regarding those few instances in the suttas as to whether s/he was already an arahant before using the knife, OR attained arahantship right after using the knife, at the split moment before death. If we aren't 100% absolutely sure, then better play it safe by trying not to use the knife before attaining arahantship. After arahantship, one's supposed to possess what's called "reviewing knowledge"/PaccavekkhanaNana/to know 100% where one is on the Path, then one should automatically know exactly what should or should not be done.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 97 guests