Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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dylanj
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by dylanj » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:07 am

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:58 pm
Are you running out of questions Sarath?

I would say rebirth is more like cloning, and right before the new clone is created, the older clone dies.
so you don't believe in rebirth?
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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budo
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by budo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:22 pm

dylanj wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:07 am
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:58 pm
Are you running out of questions Sarath?

I would say rebirth is more like cloning, and right before the new clone is created, the older clone dies.
so you don't believe in rebirth?
I don't believe in transmigration.

"“Can there be any rebirth where there is no transmigration?”

“Yes there can, just as a man can light one oil-lamp from another but nothing moves from one lamp to the other; or as a pupil can learn a verse by heart from a teacher but the verse does not transmigrate from teacher to pupil.”"

and...

"So the Buddha said to a certain monk: “Please, monk, in my name tell the mendicant Sāti that the teacher summons him.” “Yes, sir,” that monk replied. He went to Sāti and said to him: “Reverend Sāti, the teacher summons you.” “Yes, reverend,” Sāti replied. He went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to him: “Is it really true, Sāti, that you have such a harmful misconception: ‘As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another’?” “Absolutely, sir. As I understand the Buddha’s teachings, it is this very same consciousness that roams and transmigrates, not another.” “Sāti, what is that consciousness?” “Sir, it is he who speaks and feels and experiences the results of good and bad deeds in all the different realms.” “Foolish man, who on earth have you ever known me to teach in that way? Haven’t I said in many ways that consciousness is dependently originated, since consciousness does not arise without a cause? But still you misrepresent me by your wrong grasp, harm yourself, and make much bad karma. This will be for your lasting harm and suffering.” "

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by salayatananirodha » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:50 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.038.than.html wrote:"Kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture. The consciousness of living beings hindered by ignorance & fettered by craving is established in/tuned to a lower property... a middling property... a refined property. Thus there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. This is how there is becoming."

— AN 3.76
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.067.than.html wrote:"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?"

"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

SarathW
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Same person" makes this sound more like the Hindu model, where a soul is repeatedly reincarnated?
The only Arahant has eliminated self-identification.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:16 pm

whynotme wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:25 pm
Rebirth is like dreams, one day you are this person, another day you are another person in another world.

For the person in the dream, there is nothing common between two dreams. But still the same person
I think this is a good point.
Buddha said that consciousness is like a magicians trick.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:36 am

The fire of existence burns with grasping as fuel. With existence as condition, birth. Same designation flame consumes whatever fuel its presented with, but it is not of a constant nature.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

pegembara
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by pegembara » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:38 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am
pegembara wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:15 am
Rebirth is like celebrating one's birthday every year.
Maybe in Zen, but we're on a Theravada forum.
The Buddha said, “Held by two kinds of views, some hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.” The former means some people are life-affirmers, delighting in the things of the world. When teachings refer to letting go and cessation, their minds recoil and hold back. By “some overreach,” he means nihilists who rejoice in the idea of non-being, asserting that when the body dies, this self is annihilated. They feel this will be true peace. “Those with vision” see what has come to be as having come to be. They cultivate dispassion toward that and are at ease with its cessation.

As long as self-view has not been penetrated, the mind will miss the middle way. The “ending of rebirth” ideal will tend to get co-opted by the nihilist view, whereas the “endlessly returning for the sake of all beings” ideal will tend to become permeated with the eternalist view.

When the sense of self is seen through, the middle way is realized. Whether we talk in terms of emptiness of the arahant of the Pali Canon, or in terms of the absolute zero of the Heart Sutra or the infinite view of the four vows, these are merely modes of speech. They all derive from the same source, the truth of the way things are. They are simply expedient formulations that guide the heart to attunement with the reality of its own nature. That attunement is the middle way.

https://info-buddhism.com/Between_Arhat ... Amaro.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Nwad
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Re: Is rebirth like changing someone's name?

Post by Nwad » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:30 am

Rebirth about relay race

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