What is craving ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 am

Greetings ,

It seems that there is 2 version of Craving ,
Which is the correct one ?
Or both are the same ?


https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms.
That is,
craving for sensual pleasures,
craving to continue existence, and
craving to end existence.

The Buddha said that this is the origin of identity.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/horner


Your reverences, there are these six (kinds of) craving:
Craving for material shapes,
craving for sounds,
craving for smells,
craving for flavours,
craving for touches,
craving for mental objects.
Last edited by James Tan on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
:reading:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am

both of the above are complementary, here is the Tanha Sutta;
"Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations. Listen well, and I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "And which craving is the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations? These 18 craving-verbalizations[1] dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations.
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am
both of the above are complementary, here is the Tanha Sutta;
"Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations. Listen well, and I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "And which craving is the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations? These 18 craving-verbalizations[1] dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations.
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
Sorry , I don't get the meaning .
:reading:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:03 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am
both of the above are complementary, here is the Tanha Sutta;
"Monks, I will teach you craving: the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations. Listen well, and I will speak."

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "And which craving is the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations? These 18 craving-verbalizations[1] dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"Thus there are 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external. These are called the 36 craving-verbalizations. Thus, with 36 craving-verbalizations of this sort in the past, 36 in the future, and 36 in the present, there are 108 craving-verbalizations.
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
Sorry , I don't get the meaning .
Sense Impressions are objectified, what one objectifies that one thinks about and explores, based on what one thinks about one is assailed by related notions and ideas.

craving is basically a state of perceived deprivation, lacking, aversion and wanting to be or not be a certain way or xperience certain states.
because of ignorance about reality there arise notions like "I am" when threre is the notion of "I am" or "this is" there can be a notion of "I am good" or "I am bad" or "this is good" or "this is bad" and one is thus partial to various states, the good states one wants merely because they are considered "good" and the are bad states one does not want because they are "bad", it is completely subjective judgement. Thus one comes to be averse to the bad and is longing for the good.
“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of eighteen kinds of mental exploration.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? On seeing a form with the eye, one explores a form productive of joy, one explores a form productive of grief, one explores a form productive of equanimity. On hearing a sound with the ear … [240] On smelling an odour with the nose … On tasting a flavour with the tongue … On touching a tangible with the body … On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, one explores a mind-object productive of joy, one explores a mind-object productive of grief, one explores a mind-object productive of equanimity. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of eighteen kinds of mental exploration.’
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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budo
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Re: What is craving ?

Post by budo » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 am

Craving is trying to hold on to something that you can't hold on to, due to the impermanent nature of reality.

Aversion is trying to push something away that you can't push away, due to the impermenent nature of reality.

When you have aversion for something, it's usually because you're craving something else.

Becoming habituated/used/attached to luxurious things is asking for trouble, because when you lose those things, and you will because that is the nature of those things, you will suffer tremendously. Same goes for being attached to everything else.

James Tan
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Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:33 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:03 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:54 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:56 am
both of the above are complementary, here is the Tanha Sutta;
Sorry , I don't get the meaning .
Sense Impressions are objectified, what one objectifies that one thinks about and explores, based on what one thinks about one is assailed by related notions and ideas.

craving is basically a state of perceived deprivation, lacking, aversion and wanting to be or not be a certain way or xperience certain states.
because of ignorance about reality there arise notions like "I am" when threre is the notion of "I am" or "this is" there can be a notion of "I am good" or "I am bad" or "this is good" or "this is bad" and one is thus partial to various states, the good states one wants merely because they are considered "good" and the are bad states one does not want because they are "bad", it is completely subjective judgement. Thus one comes to be averse to the bad and is longing for the good.
“‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of eighteen kinds of mental exploration.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? On seeing a form with the eye, one explores a form productive of joy, one explores a form productive of grief, one explores a form productive of equanimity. On hearing a sound with the ear … [240] On smelling an odour with the nose … On tasting a flavour with the tongue … On touching a tangible with the body … On cognizing a mind-object with the mind, one explores a mind-object productive of joy, one explores a mind-object productive of grief, one explores a mind-object productive of equanimity. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘Bhikkhu, this person consists of eighteen kinds of mental exploration.’
OK , thanks .


It seems that craving for sensual pleasure leads to becoming or existence ,
how does craving for becoming (sensual, fine material and non material) is a craving ?
Or craving for non-becoming (non sensual, non fine material and non not material) is a craving ?
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: What is craving ?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:44 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 am
Greetings ,

It seems that there is 2 version of Craving ,
Which is the correct one ?
Or both are the same ?


https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms.
That is,
craving for sensual pleasures,
craving to continue existence, and
craving to end existence.

The Buddha said that this is the origin of identity.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/horner


Your reverences, there are these six (kinds of) craving:
Craving for material shapes,
craving for sounds,
craving for smells,
craving for flavours,
craving for touches,
craving for mental objects.
I think the second quote is an elaboration of "craving to continue existence" in the first quote. You might call it the craving for continued experience.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:50 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:44 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 am
Greetings ,

It seems that there is 2 version of Craving ,
Which is the correct one ?
Or both are the same ?


https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms.
That is,
craving for sensual pleasures,
craving to continue existence, and
craving to end existence.

The Buddha said that this is the origin of identity.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/horner


Your reverences, there are these six (kinds of) craving:
Craving for material shapes,
craving for sounds,
craving for smells,
craving for flavours,
craving for touches,
craving for mental objects.
I think the second quote is an elaboration of "craving to continue existence" in the first quote. You might call it the craving for continued experience.
I think the second quote is equivalent to craving for sensual pleasure !
Continuation of Existence is different from Continuation of Experience !
Continue Experience solely can be described as for this very life .
Continue Existence can be described as future birth .
:reading:

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is craving ?

Post by SarathW » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:29 am

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 am
Greetings ,

It seems that there is 2 version of Craving ,
Which is the correct one ?
Or both are the same ?


https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms.
That is,
craving for sensual pleasures,
craving to continue existence, and
craving to end existence.

The Buddha said that this is the origin of identity.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/horner


Your reverences, there are these six (kinds of) craving:
Craving for material shapes,
craving for sounds,
craving for smells,
craving for flavours,
craving for touches,
craving for mental objects.
The way I interpret the first description is applied to each of the second descriptions.
For instance craving for sound has Kama, Bhava and Vibhava Tanha all three.
The reason being the Dependent Origination is applied to all senses individually and collectively.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:39 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:29 am
James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:48 am
Greetings ,

It seems that there is 2 version of Craving ,
Which is the correct one ?
Or both are the same ?


https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms.
That is,
craving for sensual pleasures,
craving to continue existence, and
craving to end existence.

The Buddha said that this is the origin of identity.”


https://suttacentral.net/mn9/en/horner


Your reverences, there are these six (kinds of) craving:
Craving for material shapes,
craving for sounds,
craving for smells,
craving for flavours,
craving for touches,
craving for mental objects.
The way I interpret the first description is applied to each of the second descriptions.
For instance craving for sound has Kama, Bhava and Vibhava Tanha all three.
The reason being the Dependent Origination is applied to all senses individually and collectively.
Taking craving for sounds example .
But , if bhava explain as FUTURE Existence or Realm .
So, you are saying craving for next life SOUND ?!
Vibhava is annihilation or ending future existence. , craving to end next life sound ?
:reading:

rightviewftw
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Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:11 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:33 am

how does craving for becoming is a craving ?
like a craving for romance or entertainment, so is the craving for becoming. If one discerns that becoming is good or even as the lesser evil the mind is inclined to becoming. If one is averse to existence one might crave non-existence as one imagines it as a freedom from the oppressing conditions. Both are verbalized as thoughts like "May i be thus", or "may i not be thus", or "may i not be", or "may i be otherwise".
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:31 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:11 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:33 am

how does craving for becoming is a craving ?
like a craving for romance or entertainment, so is the craving for becoming. If one discerns that becoming is good or even as the lesser evil the mind is inclined to becoming. If one is averse to existence one might crave non-existence as one imagines it as a freedom from the oppressing conditions. Both are verbalized as thoughts like "May i be thus", or "may i not be thus", or "may i not be", or "may i be otherwise".
Afaik , becoming is CONTINUATION into sensual realm, fine material realm and non material realm .
Craving , instead is, desiring to the 6 sense objects . Which is , I think , going after the sense (objects which gives rise) Pleasure .

DESIRING to experience
sense pleasure AGAIN is CRAVING .

Thinking / wanting to CONTINUE (becoming) or DISCONTINUE (annihilation) to Live is CLINGING (to wrong view) .
:reading:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:55 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:31 pm
Afaik , becoming is CONTINUATION into sensual realm, fine material realm and non material realm .
Craving , instead is, desiring to the 6 sense objects . Which is , I think , going after the sense (objects which gives rise) Pleasure .

DESIRING to experience
sense pleasure AGAIN is CRAVING .

Thinking / wanting to CONTINUE (becoming) or DISCONTINUE (annihilation) to Live is CLINGING (to wrong view) .
What one wants, that one desires and what one wants that one craves. I am not sure about the pali but craving, wanting and desire have similar meaning in the English language but some differences too.

Perhaps a bad example but fwiw ;

A person who has no interest in playing the lottery does not have craving for winning the lottery but if given the option to win the price if he wanted to he might still want to win it.

So there is "dormant" desire but there is no experience of craving for it until the option presents itself.

Tanha is also sometimes translated as "thirst".
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

James Tan
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:55 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:31 pm
Afaik , becoming is CONTINUATION into sensual realm, fine material realm and non material realm .
Craving , instead is, desiring to the 6 sense objects . Which is , I think , going after the sense (objects which gives rise) Pleasure .

DESIRING to experience
sense pleasure AGAIN is CRAVING .

Thinking / wanting to CONTINUE (becoming) or DISCONTINUE (annihilation) to Live is CLINGING (to wrong view) .
What one wants, that one desires and what one wants that one craves. I am not sure about the pali but craving, wanting and desire have similar meaning in the English language but some differences too.

Perhaps a bad example but fwiw ;

A person who has no interest in playing the lottery does not have craving for winning the lottery but if given the option to win the price if he wanted to he might still want to win it.

So there is "dormant" desire but there is no experience of craving for it until the option presents itself.

Tanha is also sometimes translated as "thirst".
Let’s take a look .

If you Want to walk from here to there is Not craving or attachment.

Craves for Ice-cream (eg) IS craving .

But , Wishing for continuous existence is Not Craving though . But is Thinking .

To annihilate one self is Not Thirst / craving .
:reading:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is craving ?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:32 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:19 pm

Let’s take a look .

If you Want to walk from here to there is Not craving or attachment.

Craves for Ice-cream (eg) IS craving .

But , Wishing for continuous existence is Not Craving though . But is Thinking .

To annihilate one self is Not Thirst / craving .
as i understand it;
wanting to be somewhere is craving verbalized as "may i be there" or "may i be elsewhere"

Thinking is not same wishing, thinking can verbalize the desire but they are not the same.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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