Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
James Tan
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by James Tan » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:08 am

No. The higher fetters include craving. Lust for form jhana; lust for formless jhana; conceit & restlessness all include craving.



Isn't that the restlessness hindrances include worries , and why does the higher fetters include Not the sloth and torpor in the list ? Does this mean the arahant still affected by sloth and torpor ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:22 am

you don't have to guess what is meant by perception therein, it is actually defined;
"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
sn22.57
No. If we wish to develop the Noble Path, this includes having the morality & concentration of listening to & recognising what others say to us when we have conversations with others; avoiding discursive talk. When you make a post, I respectfully and considerately read everything you post. I already addressed the interpretation of "sanna". If you wish to reply to this matter, then respond to what was previously posted (repeated :roll: below):
DooDoot wrote:Again, to clear this up, lets go to AN 10.60. AN 10.60 lists a number of "sanna" meditations however none of these are direct perception. Instead, they are reflections that use thought (paṭisañcikkhati), as follows:
Ānanda, if you were to recite to the mendicant Girimānanda these ten perceptions, it’s possible that after hearing them his illness will die down on the spot.

Sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, girimānandassa bhikkhuno dasa saññā bhāseyyāsi, ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ vijjati yaṃ girimānandassa bhikkhuno dasa saññā sutvā so ābādho ṭhānaso paṭippassambheyya.

The perceptions of impermanence, not-self, ugliness, drawbacks, giving up, fading away, cessation, dissatisfaction with the whole world, non-desire for all conditions, and mindfulness of breathing.
Aniccasaññā, anattasaññā, asubhasaññā, ādīnavasaññā, pahānasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, sabbaloke anabhiratasaññā, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā, ānāpānassati.

And what is the perception of impermanence?
Katamā cānanda, aniccasaññā?
It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this:
Idhānanda, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati:

‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent.’
‘rūpaṃ aniccaṃ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṃ aniccan’ti.

This is called the perception of impermanence.
Ayaṃ vuccatānanda, aniccasaññā.

And what is the perception of not-self?
Katamā cānanda, anattasaññā?

It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this:
Idhānanda, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati:

‘The eye and sights, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and tastes, body and touches, and mind and thoughts are not-self.’
‘cakkhu anattā, rūpā anattā, sotaṃ anattā, saddā anattā, ghānaṃ anattā, gandhā anattā, jivhā anattā, rasā anattā, kāyā anattā, phoṭṭhabbā anattā, mano anattā, dhammā anattā’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.60/en/sujato
As I previously said, I am done with this topic because i think the immediately related Sutta material has been more or less presented. :geek:

chownah
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:27 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:21 am
....I think it is clear from an11.10 that this is kind of perception is not the kind of perception used for achieving direct knowledge.
As posted, in my view, perception is not used generically or ordinarily in AN 11.10. As I posted, it appears "sanna" is used within the names of different types of meditations; that is all. Its like the name of the meditation: "Anapanasati". "Sati" is used within the name of that meditation. It does not mean all "satl" is related to breathing.
I must have missed something. Previously I asked what "perception" was translated from in an11.10 and you said "sanna". Now it seems you are saying that the word for perception there is a compound word as a label for a type of meditative absorbtion.

My entry in to this discussion was to point out that I thought that there was a great degree of agreement between mn1 and an11.10 with respect to what it was saying about sanna (perception)...so far what you have said directly on this issue has enouraged me in this belief.

With respect to your comment that it is your view that when walking in the woods (for example) that the buddha uses sanna just as we all do: I have had experiences which I interpret as being glimpses of a state where what is experienced is not labeled, is not dissected into self/other. From these expereinces I have the view that it may very will be that the buddha walking in the woods while being capable of sanna (perception) he does not required to use it but has other options. I have not discerned this but it is my suspicion that sanna (perception) may be the kind of "perception" which arises dependent on "intention"....and that to the extent that one can walk in the woods without intending is the extent that one can forgoe sanna.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:26 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:14 am
I have had experiences which I interpret as being glimpses of a state where what is experienced is not labeled, is not dissected into self/other.
If the mind can see/distinguish shapes, forms & colours; it seems this is sanna. It seems "labeling" is not required for sanna. Possibly you can start a new topic on what exactly is sanna?
'It perceives, it perceives': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'perception.' And what does it perceive? It perceives blue. It perceives yellow. It perceives red. It perceives white. 'It perceives, it perceives': Thus it is said to be 'perception.

MN 43; SN 22.79

chownah
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:05 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:26 am
chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:14 am
I have had experiences which I interpret as being glimpses of a state where what is experienced is not labeled, is not dissected into self/other.
If the mind can see/distinguish shapes, forms & colours; it seems this is sanna.
It does not seem this way to me with respect to walking around....it seems to me that it can be done without sanna but with some other "mode of perception".....perhaps that mode is expressed in the term "direct knowing".
chownah

chownah
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:08 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:14 am
I must have missed something. Previously I asked what "perception" was translated from in an11.10 and you said "sanna". Now it seems you are saying that the word for perception there is a compound word as a label for a type of meditative absorbtion.
Doodoot,
Can you clarify this?
chownah

rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:25 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:22 am

you don't have to guess what is meant by perception therein, it is actually defined;
"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
sn22.57
No.
You don't get to disagree with that statement, it is not a matter of opinion; that is what that Discourse says, i did not stitch together several discourses, that is what the discourse says. It refers to the cessation of perception by means of cessation of contact. Your opinion is completely irrelevant.

Perception is defined in that discourse and what is meant by perception in that particular discourse and that particular context is made clear by the speaker, it is not a matter that is up for debate, it can not be subjected to disagreement nor be denied to the extent that it is defined in the discourse.

Now if you want to question the definition of contact and sense-bases and how exactly perception originates and the nature of those realities - you can do that (i suggest the beginner's section of the forum) but you can't claim that Perception therein does not refer to the six classes of perception that originate of contact.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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