Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:39 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Secondly because cessation of perception is the goal of the path, one does not practice cessation of perception, one attains it by means of the path of practice.
I have two comments....is it possible that really the goal is the non-arising of perception....and that it is possible to temporarily halt the perceptive process as in meditation and yet perception arises again when that meditative interval is over?.....
yes
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 am
and that continued non-arising can be achieved only with some other kinds of support or perhaps after alot of meditative repititions?
a better word is constant non-arising which would be constant non-arising after final extinguishing. Parinibbana.
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 am
Second comment, is it possible that the goal is actually the end of suffering (think of the four noble truths) and the the temprary cessation of perception is something which supports the goal of the end of suffering and the non-arising of perception is something which happens when the goal is reached but is not the goal itself?
chownah
perception is conditioned, that which perceives is conditioned and perception is of conditioned phenomena, therefore the six classes of perception can be explained to be suffering.
"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:39 am
Parinibbana.
The Buddha's Parinibbana occurred when he was 80 years old. But for the previous 45 years, the Buddha lived with Nibbana. More importantly, if the here-&-now Nibbana is not attained, Parinibbana cannot be attained. The goal of the path is not Parinibbana. It is Nibbana. Emphasis on Parinibbana is for those kicking the can down the road; wishing to keep Nibbana as far away as possible; the unacheivable; like setting one's heart on the most beautiful girl in the world who is out of one's reach.

rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:39 am
Parinibbana.
The Buddha's Parinibbana occurred when he was 80 years old. But for the previous 45 years, the Buddha lived with Nibbana. More importantly, if the here-&-now Nibbana is not attained, Parinibbana cannot be attained. The goal of the path is not Parinibbana. It is Nibbana. Emphasis on Parinibbana is for those kicking the can down the road.
you have no idea of what you are talking about. You think that nibbana is cessation of craving, like stopping smoking and removing craving for smoking. I get it, you plan on ending all craving without relying on the experience of cessation of aggregates and coming to know the Unmade where neither wind, water, fire or earth get a footing, neither this world nor the world beyond etc.

Good luck with that but you will fail for it is not possible that the Asava would go to an end for someone who does not know and see this Dhamma.

Even puthujhana attain such cessation of craving of which you speak, there is nothing special in such puthujhana attainment of cessation of craving.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:57 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:54 am
you have no idea of what you are talking about. You think that nibbana is cessation of craving...
Sure, I have no idea.... :roll: :pig: :strawman:
154. O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving

Dhammapada
And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

SN 56.11
"Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth adhering to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling (think about) to anything in the world. When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

MN 37
:jumping:

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cappuccino
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:59 am

the aggregates cannot cease, not sure why you would want them to

except, there are exceptions

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:01 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:54 am
Even puthujhana attain such cessation of craving of which you speak, there is nothing special in such puthujhana attainment of cessation of craving.
:jawdrop: The impression is the above affirms how substantial the wrong view is.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:57 am
There is a difference between completely uprooting the higher fetters and stopping smoking lol. Jain monks surely have far less craving than you on average, are they Ariya for that reason? Nope.

Your puthujhanna understanding of destruction of craving does not lead to destruction of Asava.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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cappuccino
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:03 am

if you believe in karma you should be careful in this forum

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:04 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:01 am
Your puthujhanna understanding of destruction of craving does not lead to destruction of Asava.
The discussion with my good self is over. The Buddha described Nibbana as the destruction of craving. To disagree with this falls outside of Buddhism.

:alien:
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:03 am
if you believe in karma you should be careful in this forum
The Buddha said kamma is intention. A blind person that trespasses on your property has no intention to trespass. Similarly, a person that does not know the teachings does not intend to misrepresent the Buddhist teachings.

:heart:
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:05 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:04 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:01 am
Your puthujhanna understanding of destruction of craving does not lead to destruction of Asava.
The discussion with my good self is over. The Buddha described Nibbana as the destruction of craving. To disagree with this falls outside of Buddhism.

:alien:
according to you anybody who stops smoking is enlightened, bye.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:08 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:05 am
according to you anybody who stops smoking is enlightened, bye.
This above seems to say the only type of "craving" is for cigarettes... :roll:
rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:01 am
There is a difference between completely uprooting the higher fetters and stopping smoking lol.
No. The higher fetters include craving. Lust for form jhana; lust for formless jhana; conceit & restlessness all include craving.

Conceit:
assumes to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that.

SN 22.81
The Blessed One said: "And which craving is the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations? These 18 craving-verbalizations[1] dependent on what is internal and 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal? There being 'I am,' there comes to be 'I am here,' there comes to be 'I am like this' ... 'I am otherwise' ... 'I am bad' ... 'I am good' ... 'I might be' ... 'I might be here' ... 'I might be like this' ... 'I might be otherwise' ... 'May I be' ... 'May I be here' ... 'May I be like this' ... 'May I be otherwise' ... 'I will be' ... 'I will be here' ... 'I will be like this' ... 'I will be otherwise.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is internal.
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:16 am, edited 4 times in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:12 am

smoking isn't from craving

same word, different meaning or implication

chownah
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:21 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:56 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:54 am
If I remember correctly, in neither of the suttas is sanna/sanjanati (perception/perceive) ascribed to accomplished people and it is used in both for unskilled people.
I already offered my opinion with reference to MN 43, where wisdom is cojoined with consciousness & perception. There are many sutta, such as SN 22.85, which say a Buddha has perception. Anyway, as I posted, I am satisfied with my study of AN 11.10. If you don't agree with me, its OK. :smile:
I don't doubt that the buddha is capable of having the same kind of perception which the uninstructed person of no achievement is stuck with.....I think it is clear from an11.10 that this is kind of perception is not the kind of perception used for achieving direct knowledge. (notice that I'm accepting that 'perception' can mean different things at different times and that I'm specifying a particular meaning for perception in what I am saying). Also, it is my view that the buddha can indulge in that gross form of perception (in my view I sometimes think of it as being perception born of ignorance) or not indulge as he saw fit. Of course there is a lot of conjecturing about this on my part.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:27 am

chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:21 am
....I think it is clear from an11.10 that this is kind of perception is not the kind of perception used for achieving direct knowledge.
As posted, in my view, perception is not used generically or ordinarily in AN 11.10. As I posted, it appears "sanna" is used within the names of different types of meditations; that is all. Its like the name of the meditation: "Anapanasati". "Sati" is used within the name of that meditation. It does not mean all "satl" is related to breathing.

rightviewftw
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:27 am
chownah wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:21 am
....I think it is clear from an11.10 that this is kind of perception is not the kind of perception used for achieving direct knowledge.
As posted, in my view, perception is not used generically or ordinarily in AN 11.10. As I posted, it appears "sanna" is used within the names of different types of meditations; that is all. Its like the name of the meditation: "Anapanasati". "Sati" is used within the name of that meditation. It does not mean all "satl" is related to breathing.
you don't have to guess what is meant by perception therein, it is actually defined;
"And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
sn22.57
Last edited by rightviewftw on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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