Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:44 am

chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:28 pm
Notice that in mn1 it is only the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" who "PERCEIVES earth as earth" but that the arahant and the thatagata are said that each "DIRECTLY KNOWS earth as earth". This seems to amply agree with the first excerpt wherein similarly for the thoroughbred man perception has ceased.

It seems like "the perception of earth" (as in the first excerpt) should be considered a conceived thing about earth or a conceived thing in earth or a conceived thing coming out of the earth or conceived ownership of earth or a form of delighting in earth......then there is no contradiction between the two.
Excellent discussion however I disagree. It seems, in MN 1, the ordinary person "perceives" (sañjānāti) earth (without wisdom) but the Buddha "directly knows" (abhijānāti) earth (with wisdom). Also, sañjānāti is obviously not maññati ("conceives"). In other words, even though the Buddha "directly knows" (abhijānāti) earth (with wisdom), he must also "perceive" (sañjānāti) earth if he "directly knows" (abhijānāti) earth because MN 43 says there is no wisdom without perception, as follows:
“They speak of this thing called ‘perception’.
“‘Saññā saññā’ti, āvuso, vuccati.

How is perception defined?”
Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, saññāti vuccatī”ti?

“It’s called perception because it perceives.
“‘Sañjānāti sañjānātī’ti kho, āvuso, tasmā saññāti vuccati.

Wisdom and consciousness—these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them. For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand. That’s why these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.

Feeling, perception, and consciousness—these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them. For you perceive what you feel, and you cognize what you perceive. That’s why these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them.

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
For beginners & experts alike, Nibbana is the cessation of craving (rather than the cessation of perception). Its seems those who keep insisting Nibbana is the cessation of perception don't really want to start practise of the noble path (because letting go of perception cannot be practised; unlike the letting go of craving, attachment & egoism, that can be practised).

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by justindesilva » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:00 am

On the subject of nibbana I happened to read the web
www.buddhistteachings.org which happen to explain the term nibbana in many facets. Here I understand that jana are mental states in the development of nibbana. An extremely difficult conversation between jana and nibbana has to be realised as subjective and objective. The objective of attaining the phala arrives through mental states of jana being stages of concentration of the mind. The mind stilled as called anidassana is used to describe mind or vingnana , whereas jana is concentration or deep focussing of the same mind. The term asankata (unconstrucred) is also used for nibbana where as jana is different.

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:32 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:44 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:28 pm
Notice that in mn1 it is only the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" who "PERCEIVES earth as earth" but that the arahant and the thatagata are said that each "DIRECTLY KNOWS earth as earth". This seems to amply agree with the first excerpt wherein similarly for the thoroughbred man perception has ceased.

It seems like "the perception of earth" (as in the first excerpt) should be considered a conceived thing about earth or a conceived thing in earth or a conceived thing coming out of the earth or conceived ownership of earth or a form of delighting in earth......then there is no contradiction between the two.
Excellent discussion however I disagree.
.....
....
Can you tell me what pali word is used which is translated to "perception" in the two instances from an11.010 (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1)shown here?:
There is the case, Sandha, where for an excellent thoroughbred of a man the perception[2] of earth with regard to earth has ceased to exist.....
.....
the perception of that has ceased to exist.
chownah

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DooDoot
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:05 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:32 am
Can you tell me what pali word is used which is translated to "perception" in the two instances from an11.010 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1 shown here?:
Saññā. Saññā (in AN 11.10) is a noun. Sañjānāti in MN 1 is a verb. The meaning of both words appears to be the same (per MN 43).
“They speak of this thing called ‘perception’.
“‘Saññā saññā’ti, āvuso, vuccati.

How is perception defined?.
Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, saññāti vuccatī”ti?

“It’s called perception because it perceives.
“‘Sañjānāti sañjānātī’ti kho, āvuso, tasmā saññāti vuccati.

MN 43; SN 22.79; etc
Imo, AN 11.10 should probably be read less literally & should be read more contextually. Contextually, the sutta is about:
They don’t meditate dependent on earth, water, fire, and air.... we don’t understand what you meditate dependent on....
So AN 11.10 might be saying the Noble Disciple does not meditate making earth, water, fire, air, etc, the primary object of perception, as explained below:
And what is the faculty of immersion? It’s when a noble disciple, relying on letting go (vossagga), gains immersion, gains unification of mind. (Sujato)

And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. (Thanissaro)

.... having made release the object.... (Bodhi)

SN 48.10
SN 48.10 appears to essentially say the Noble Disciple makes Nibbana the object of meditation (which matches my interpretation of AN 11.10).

Another sutta supporting my interpretation is MN 121, where the "perception of earth" is a formal meditation object (and uses the same terminology as AN 11.10). Thus, it appears AN 11.10 might not be referring to the everyday perception of earth, such as when the Buddha is walking in the forest and sees the trees, rocks, sand, hills, etc. It seems to be referring to a formal meditation object.
Furthermore, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of people and the perception of wilderness—focuses on the oneness dependent on the perception of earth.

Puna caparaṃ, ānanda, bhikkhu amanasikaritvā manussasaññaṃ, amanasikaritvā araññasaññaṃ, pathavīsaññaṃ paṭicca manasi karoti ekattaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato
Compare to AN 11.10:
Sandha, for a fine thoroughbred person, the perception of earth has vanished in relation to earth. The perception of water … fire … air has vanished in relation to air. The perception of the dimension of infinite space has vanished in relation to the dimension of infinite space. The perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness … nothingness … neither perception nor non-perception has vanished in relation to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. The perception of this world has vanished in relation to this world. The perception of the other world has vanished in relation to the other world. And the perception of what is seen, heard, thought, cognized, attained, sought, or explored by the mind has vanished.

“Idha, saddha, bhadrassa purisājānīyassa pathaviyaṃ pathavisaññā vibhūtā hoti, āpasmiṃ āposaññā vibhūtā hoti, tejasmiṃ tejosaññā vibhūtā hoti, vāyasmiṃ vāyosaññā vibhūtā hoti, ākāsānañcāyatane ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, viññāṇañcāyatane viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, ākiñcaññāyatane ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, nevasaññānāsaññāyatane nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, idhaloke idhalokasaññā vibhūtā hoti, paraloke paralokasaññā vibhūtā hoti, yampidaṃ diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, tatrāpi saññā vibhūtā hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/an11.9/en/sujato
To reiterate, the word "vibhūtā" is the key word here (which the three translators all translated as "disappears"). Rather than simply meaning the disappearance of "materialistic existence", the word "bhūtā" in "vibhūtā" here may refer to some type of "bhava" or clinging based mental becoming that ceases. This interpretation appears to match AN 11.10, which is all about the Noble Disciple meditating not dependent on any conditioned phenomena.

Anyway, I am satisfied with my study of this, i.e., AN 11.10, MN 1 and MN 121. MN 121 makes clear the terminology, for me. :smile:

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Pondera
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Pondera » Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:22 am

DooDoot wrote:
For beginners & experts alike, Nibbana is the cessation of craving (rather than the cessation of perception). Its seems those who keep insisting Nibbana is the cessation of perception don't really want to start practise of the noble path (because letting go of perception cannot be practised; unlike the letting go of craving, attachment & egoism, that can be practised).
Perception is let go of when Consciousness is let go of. What’s more, the state of cessation of perception and feeling is attained by letting go of consciousness.
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:46 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:44 am
Its seems those who keep insisting Nibbana is the cessation of perception don't really want to start practise of the noble path
this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Those who have realized the cessation of perception have not only practiced but have actually realized the Noble Eightfold Path and are way beyond mere "starting to practise the path".

It is like saying that the winner of the Olympics has not started training, absurdity.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by Robert123 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 am

Thank you for the first few posts at the beginning of this topic! You answered my question.

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:02 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:46 am
Those who have realized the cessation of perception have not only practiced but have actually realized the Noble Eightfold Path and are way beyond mere "starting to practise the path".
Sorry but no one has done the above; from the start. The above is non-sequitur. The argument made up above is alien. :alien: :roll:

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:18 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:05 am
Another sutta supporting my interpretation is MN 121, where the "perception of earth" is a formal meditation object (and uses the same terminology as AN 11.10). Thus, it appears AN 11.10 might not be referring to the everyday perception of earth, such as when the Buddha is walking in the forest and sees the trees, rocks, sand, hills, etc. It seems to be referring to a formal meditation object.
Furthermore, a mendicant—ignoring the perception of people and the perception of wilderness—focuses on the oneness dependent on the perception of earth.

Puna caparaṃ, ānanda, bhikkhu amanasikaritvā manussasaññaṃ, amanasikaritvā araññasaññaṃ, pathavīsaññaṃ paṭicca manasi karoti ekattaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato
Compare to AN 11.10:
Sandha, for a fine thoroughbred person, the perception of earth has vanished in relation to earth. The perception of water … fire … air has vanished in relation to air. The perception of the dimension of infinite space has vanished in relation to the dimension of infinite space. The perception of the dimension of infinite consciousness … nothingness … neither perception nor non-perception has vanished in relation to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. The perception of this world has vanished in relation to this world. The perception of the other world has vanished in relation to the other world. And the perception of what is seen, heard, thought, cognized, attained, sought, or explored by the mind has vanished.

“Idha, saddha, bhadrassa purisājānīyassa pathaviyaṃ pathavisaññā vibhūtā hoti, āpasmiṃ āposaññā vibhūtā hoti, tejasmiṃ tejosaññā vibhūtā hoti, vāyasmiṃ vāyosaññā vibhūtā hoti, ākāsānañcāyatane ākāsānañcāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, viññāṇañcāyatane viññāṇañcāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, ākiñcaññāyatane ākiñcaññāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, nevasaññānāsaññāyatane nevasaññānāsaññāyatanasaññā vibhūtā hoti, idhaloke idhalokasaññā vibhūtā hoti, paraloke paralokasaññā vibhūtā hoti, yampidaṃ diṭṭhaṃ sutaṃ mutaṃ viññātaṃ pattaṃ pariyesitaṃ anuvicaritaṃ manasā, tatrāpi saññā vibhūtā hoti.

https://suttacentral.net/an11.9/en/sujato
Again, to clear this up, lets go to AN 10.60. AN 10.60 lists a number of "sanna" meditations however none of these are direct perception. Instead, they are reflections that use thought (paṭisañcikkhati), as follows:
Ānanda, if you were to recite to the mendicant Girimānanda these ten perceptions, it’s possible that after hearing them his illness will die down on the spot.

Sace kho tvaṃ, ānanda, girimānandassa bhikkhuno dasa saññā bhāseyyāsi, ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ vijjati yaṃ girimānandassa bhikkhuno dasa saññā sutvā so ābādho ṭhānaso paṭippassambheyya.

The perceptions of impermanence, not-self, ugliness, drawbacks, giving up, fading away, cessation, dissatisfaction with the whole world, non-desire for all conditions, and mindfulness of breathing.
Aniccasaññā, anattasaññā, asubhasaññā, ādīnavasaññā, pahānasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, sabbaloke anabhiratasaññā, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā, ānāpānassati.

And what is the perception of impermanence?
Katamā cānanda, aniccasaññā?
It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this:
Idhānanda, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati:

‘Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent.’
‘rūpaṃ aniccaṃ, vedanā aniccā, saññā aniccā, saṅkhārā aniccā, viññāṇaṃ aniccan’ti.

This is called the perception of impermanence.
Ayaṃ vuccatānanda, aniccasaññā.

And what is the perception of not-self?
Katamā cānanda, anattasaññā?

It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this:
Idhānanda, bhikkhu araññagato vā rukkhamūlagato vā suññāgāragato vā iti paṭisañcikkhati:

‘The eye and sights, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and tastes, body and touches, and mind and thoughts are not-self.’
‘cakkhu anattā, rūpā anattā, sotaṃ anattā, saddā anattā, ghānaṃ anattā, gandhā anattā, jivhā anattā, rasā anattā, kāyā anattā, phoṭṭhabbā anattā, mano anattā, dhammā anattā’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.60/en/sujato
Similar, the various meditations listed in AN 11.10 (AN 11.9) are "sanna" meditations, as also stated in MN 121. They are deliberately bringing the mind to those themes of meditation.

Important, the word "sanna" appears to be a "noun" or, otherwise, an "adjective". Unlike MN 1, AN 11.10 does not use a "verb". Thus, in AN 11.10, it appears "earth", "water", etc, are names of a type of meditation, as found in MN 62 or MN 10:
Furthermore, a mendicant examines their own body, up from the soles of the feet and down from the tips of the hairs, wrapped in skin and full of many kinds of filth.
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ uddhaṃ pādatalā, adho kesamatthakā, tacapariyantaṃ pūraṃ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati:

‘In this body there is head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine.’
‘atthi imasmiṃ kāye kesā lomā nakhā dantā taco maṃsaṃ nhāru aṭṭhi aṭṭhimiñjaṃ vakkaṃ hadayaṃ yakanaṃ kilomakaṃ pihakaṃ papphāsaṃ antaṃ antaguṇaṃ udariyaṃ karīsaṃ pittaṃ semhaṃ pubbo lohitaṃ sedo medo assu vasā kheḷo siṅghāṇikā lasikā muttan’ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by James Tan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:52 am

It should be noticed that when the nutriment consciousness has stopped , so the craving is abandoned . With that , the mind attained release .



"In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment consciousness be considered. If the nutriment consciousness is comprehended, mind-and-matter are thereby comprehended. And if mind and body are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple."

— SN 12.63
Last edited by James Tan on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
:reading:

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:54 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:05 am
chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:32 am
Can you tell me what pali word is used which is translated to "perception" in the two instances from an11.010 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-1 shown here?:
Saññā. Saññā (in AN 11.10) is a noun. Sañjānāti in MN 1 is a verb. The meaning of both words appears to be the same (per MN 43).
Ok then....it seems that the pali usage is consistent in meaning between the two suttas....sanna/sanjanati (noun/verb) are used in both suttas to point to something which unskilled people do and accomplished people don't do (so to speak). If I remember correctly, in neither of the suttas is sanna/sanjanati (perception/perceive) ascribed to accomplished people and it is used in both for unskilled people.

I think that alot of misunderstanding comes from the existence of many different (and conflicting) meanings for 'perception/perceive' used in the english language. When people see a sutta (in english) where perception or perceive is used I think that alot of them just use the one which they have associated with the suttas and have not given much thought to the fact that perception or perceive can mean alot of different things in english......my view is that people need to clarify what is meant by doing some additional study.....do note that thanissaro's translation of an11.10 does contain a footnote which clarifies the term 'perception' to mean "I.e., mental note or label.".....so in his translation he is using perception in the sense of it meaning mental note or label and I presume then that perceive would be rendered mental noting or labeling.

For me this makes sense that for this meaning of "perception" it would be considered something which is a fabrication and which arahants and the thatagata can forgoe.

chownah

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:02 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:46 am
Those who have realized the cessation of perception have not only practiced but have actually realized the Noble Eightfold Path and are way beyond mere "starting to practise the path".
Sorry but no one has done the above; from the start. The above is non-sequitur. The argument made up above is alien. :alien: :roll:
you are right,i did not really address your statement properly. when you say
those who keep insisting Nibbana is the cessation of perception don't really want to start practise of the noble path (because letting go of perception cannot be practised; unlike the letting go of craving, attachment & egoism, that can be practised).
You are first of all insulting those who say Nibbana can be explained to be cessation of perception.
Secondly because cessation of perception is the goal of the path, one does not practice cessation of perception, one attains it by means of the path of practice.
this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
Therefore when you say that
  • they dont start practicing the path
because
  • they can't practice cessation of perception
It is not correct because the conclusion does not follow the premise.

One who says that Nibbana can be explained as cessation of perception is not expected to be practicing THE cessation of perception to be practicing the eightfold noble path of practice leading to cessation of perception. He can however be expected to be practicing FOR the cessation of perception.

The and For is the difference therein which you seem to equate.

I will even give you an analogy;
If one is training for winning the Olympis one is not expected to be training the winning of Olympics.

Therefore you can't say These people don't train for the winning of Olympics because they are not training the winning of Olympics.

Moderator note: provocatively insulting comment deleted from this post. Please could all members restrict themselves to constructive comments.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by cappuccino » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:50 pm

And what is perception? These six classes of perception — perception of form, perception of sound, perception of smell, perception of taste, perception of tactile sensation, perception of ideas: this is called perception. From the origination of contact comes the origination of perception. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of perception. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...

chownah
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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Secondly because cessation of perception is the goal of the path, one does not practice cessation of perception, one attains it by means of the path of practice.
I see the difficulty you are explaining (I hope I do anyway).....i.e. cessation of perception is the goal and it is therefore not found in the method for its attainment....how could one practice something which one has not attained?

I have two comments....is it possible that really the goal is the non-arising of perception....and that it is possible to temporarily halt the perceptive process as in meditation and yet perception arises again when that meditative interval is over?.....and that continued non-arising can be achieved only with some other kinds of support or perhaps after alot of meditative repititions?

Second comment, is it possible that the goal is actually the end of suffering (think of the four noble truths) and the the temprary cessation of perception is something which supports the goal of the end of suffering and the non-arising of perception is something which happens when the goal is reached but is not the goal itself?
chownah

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Re: Supramundane Jhanas AS Nibbana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:56 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:54 am
If I remember correctly, in neither of the suttas is sanna/sanjanati (perception/perceive) ascribed to accomplished people and it is used in both for unskilled people.
I already offered my opinion with reference to MN 43, where wisdom is cojoined with consciousness & perception. There are many sutta, such as SN 22.85, which say a Buddha has perception. Anyway, as I posted, I am satisfied with my study of AN 11.10. If you don't agree with me, its OK. :smile:
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
You are first of all insulting those who say Nibbana can be explained to be cessation of perception.
I suggest to abandon girly victimhood Cultural Marxism by refraining saying others are "insulted". Please. Write in a Buddhist manner. Regardless, Nibbana cannot be explained as cessation of perception.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Secondly because cessation of perception is the goal of the path, one does not practice cessation of perception, one attains it by means of the path of practice.
Its not the goal of the path. The Buddha only said the 4th jhana was necessary. Nirodha Samapatti is optional.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of perception...
No. The above is a mistranslation or misinterpretation. When the word "nirodha" is used in relation to the eightfold path or the reverse of dependent origination, it does not have the same meaning as in Nirodha Samapatti. We have discussed this many times before. Suttas such as Iti 44, MN 148, MN 37 and MN 38 have been quoted, which show Nibbana and Dependent Cessation include feeling & perception.
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Therefore you can't say These people don't train for the winning of Olympics because they are not training the winning of Olympics.
I will provide you with a very crude simile to explain a point. When a person wishes to organism and ejaculate via masturbation, they stroke and stroke and stroke until they "manipulate" their sexual organs into orgasm and ejaculation. This is the "yogic" path, where people think by "manipulating" their breathing, imaginary jhanas, etc, they are developing the path; by manipulation or masturbation.

The Buddha did not teach like this. The Buddha taught craving is abandoned at the beginning of the path and the complete destruction of craving is the end of the path. The beginning is the same as the end; only different by degrees.

The idea a person will "volitionally manipulate" their mind into "non-perception" is illogical.

The 8 fold path begins with the Right Understanding that craving is the origin of dukkha and is to be abandoned. This gives rise to the 2nd, 6th and 7th factors of the path, which revolve around "abandoning". The Path is a path of Abandoning. But when you talk about what you imagine the Path is, you imagine it as a "Yogic" or "Manipulating" approach; where somehow the beginning of the path is different to the end of the path. .
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:24 pm
Moderator note: provocatively insulting comment deleted from this post. Please could all members restrict themselves to constructive comments.
Non-sequitur. Cultural Marxism and attachment. :focus:

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